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Breeder queens

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tristan    2,834

i think its was Peter Dearden's presentation.

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Otto    415
didn't one of the scientist do genetic testing a few years back (was shown at first rotorua conference) and found nz has its own line of bees thats not found elsewhere. quite remarkable what isolation can produce.

@tristan @JohnF

Yes, that would have been Peter's presentation. I'm not sure exactly what he covered in that one but the work we did certainly made it look like bees have been evolving quickly in NZ. While that would be remarkable there simply hasn't been enough similar work done anywhere overseas to prove this (which has unfortunately also made it difficult to publish).

This work was still done using the CSD gene as a measure of genetic diversity but used a high-throughput sequencing approach to gather sequence data from whole apiary samples at a time, rather than from individual drones.

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Scutellator    2
Do you think it would be a good thing to import , with bio security controls, some new genetics into the NZ bee population.

I read about buckfast bees and they sounded pretty good.

 

There is nothing that will cause more troubles to the majority of the beekeepers than sudden increase in the average crop per hive produced.

 

I was reading about NZ as well. It all sounded way too good to be true. All buckfasts have bigger honey sac, but a good one (yep, great variation between the vaious bee breeders) is basically pretty much a controlled heterosis. Hence - pedigree. For those, who know how to read it right.

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kaihoka    644
There is nothing that will cause more troubles to the majority of the beekeepers than sudden increase in the average crop per hive produced.

 

I was reading about NZ as well. It all sounded way too good to be true. All buckfasts have bigger honey sac, but a good one (yep, great variation between the vaious bee breeders) is basically pretty much a controlled heterosis. Hence - pedigree. For those, who know how to read it right.

I would like an increase in average crop per hive .

I am a hobbyist.

Are you referring to the problem some beeks are having selling their honey .

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Scutellator    2

It seems very short sighted to allow any import of anything bee related in to NZ.

It is much wisier to control something, wich you can't stop. Australia has the best bio security program in the world, although not perfect by any means.

 

 

Insects don't inbreed like mammals do.

 

Respectfully agree. Honeybees are much more sensitive to inbreeding. They don't have the same history of thousands of years of inbreeding as the farm animals. Apart from the obvious, they have great many hidden sublethals, wich make the first few generations of inbreeding most difficult. Genetic erosion is another thing. Loss of ability of self defence (against robbers) and housekeeping ability/basic hygene in a population are the first signs

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Scutellator    2
Posted (edited)
I would like an increase in average crop per hive .

I am a hobbyist.

Are you referring to the problem some beeks are having selling their honey .

Nah, dude. Just like there is no biggest pest to the bees than the beekeeper, nothing can harm a beekeeper more than another beekeeper ( except maybe another beekeeper, who is also a female).

 

Market economy theory doesn't support superprofits for too long

Edited by Guest

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tom sayn    1,047
Nah, dude. Just like there is no biggest pest to the bees than the beekeeper, nothing can harm a beekeeper more than another beekeeper ( except maybe another beekeeper, who is also a female).

 

if you were looking for trouble you may have found it now, dude:whistle::whistle::whistle:

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Scutellator    2
if you were looking for trouble you may have found it now, dude:whistle::whistle::whistle:

So you're the one I was referring to. We all know who you are now and what you do.

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Rob Stockley    2,365

This topic has gone from breeder queens to the twilight zone....

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Bron    1,818

Actually, @Scutellator, there's lots a lady beeks on here, @tom sayn was trying to give you a "heads up"...

 

@Rob Stockley, I know you love it!

 

It's winter!!! Anything can happen!

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BSB    491

Seems like everyone is quick to look for a seemingly easy answer to whatever their issue happens to be. Don't like the queens you have, import something else and yet the number of new clients who even ask about how I breed or what I look for in a queen is tiny. Time and time again NZ agriculture and horticulture has looked outside NZ for easy/cheap solutions to their issues and been bitten by pests or disease....psa in kiwifruit anyone. How about beekeepers start working on actual bee knowledge and expertise so they can maximise the production in their hives rather than looking for some kind of 'silver bullet' in different queens to fix their weaknesses. What is the point of having a country in the middle if nowhere that is a barrier to biosecurity issues if we bring them in anyway.

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kaihoka    644
Seems like everyone is quick to look for a seemingly easy answer to whatever their issue happens to be. Don't like the queens you have, import something else and yet the number of new clients who even ask about how I breed or what I look for in a queen is tiny. Time and time again NZ agriculture and horticulture has looked outside NZ for easy/cheap solutions to their issues and been bitten by pests or disease....psa in kiwifruit anyone. How about beekeepers start working on actual bee knowledge and expertise so they can maximise the production in their hives rather than looking for some kind of 'silver bullet' in different queens to fix their weaknesses. What is the point of having a country in the middle if nowhere that is a barrier to biosecurity issues if we bring them in anyway.

What do you look for in queen ?

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Philbee    1,250
What do you look for in queen ?

For me its absolutely critical that a breeder Queen isnt too Black, has 6 legs, 2 wings and lays eggs.

Ive had five legged queens but they dont last

Wings are important too,

I haven't had a good run with really black Queens but cross breds are fine.

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David Yanke    49
Varroa was discovered in NZ in 2000, carniolan imports were given the OK in 2004, deformed wing virus was first discovered in NZ in Northland in 2007.

 

My bet is with the virus being in the carny semen

DWV was almost certainly here before the testing was done in 2007. We were seeing deformed wings long before the carnica semen imports started in 2004. When the first varroa stepped ashore in 1999/2000, it was almost certainly carrying DWV.

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dansar    3,952
DWV was almost certainly here before the testing was done in 2007. We were seeing deformed wings long before the carnica semen imports started in 2004. When the first varroa stepped ashore in 1999/2000, it was almost certainly carrying DWV.

Welcome to the forum @David Yanke

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David Yanke    49
Posted (edited)
I think we should be very concerned with not letting in any more pests and diseases.

It seems very short sighted to allow any import of anything bee related in to NZ.

There is a reason we are unique and can demand a good price for our honey and it would be silly to stuff that up by adding more stressors to an already pushed environment.

Just for the sake of a few new genetics.

Insects don't inbreed like mammals do.

Not true, Honey Bees are very prone to inbreeding depression. All New World Honey Bee populations suffer from the genetic bottle neck that the distance and difficulty in importing material from Old World populations creates. In the early days it was a real mission to get colonies here alive by sea, and after WW2, New Zealand became a fortress, so there were no legal importations of Queens or Semen for decades. NZ commercial bee stocks are built on a very narrow genetic base, and we should be concerned.

Edited by Guest
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David Yanke    49
I think you're referring to @Otto 's work on the CSD gene work to show the genetic diversity of NZ bees? The work showed that there was plenty of genetic diversity in NZ bee populations but various genotypes existed in different areas.

 

What that research showed was the number of alleles of a single gene. While it is an important gene because it determines sex, it is a gene that is a rampant mutator. There are at least 5000 genes in the Honey Bee genome, that work on the CSD gene can not be used to cast accurate judgement on the extent of variation across the entire genome.

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Daley    2,435

:whistle:

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kaihoka    644
:whistle:

Do you think it was more fun when everyone just guessed stuff .:)

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Daley    2,435
Do you think it was more fun when everyone just guessed stuff .:)

Sometimes it is.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion or taking a guess as long as your willing to stand corrected when your wrong.

 

I don't think there is much science if any that would sway my view into letting more bee products or bees or bee genetic material across the border though.

We could end up considerably worse off for our troubles.

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frazzledfozzle    4,458
Posted (edited)
DWV was almost certainly here before the testing was done in 2007. We were seeing deformed wings long before the carnica semen imports started in 2004. When the first varroa stepped ashore in 1999/2000, it was almost certainly carrying DWV.

 

On the nz government teara website it says DWV was discovered in NZ in 2007.

If it was being found in hives before then why was it not tested for as this would have been a new phenomenon and surely would have been of interest?

8. – Beekeeping – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand

 

I had never seen deformed wings until well after varroa arrived in the South Island,

 

If DWV arrived with varroa why did it take so long to show up in hives? I would have thought it would show up at the same time because that was when a lot of hives were getting high numbers of varroa.

 

I hope the government doesn't allow any more imports of honey bee genetics it's too big a dice to roll in my opinion.

 

@David Yanke It's very good to see you on the forum :)

Edited by Guest

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kaihoka    644

I have not noticed DWV in my hives.

I have looked for it and I shall look harder.

I certainly have varroa

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kaihoka    644
DWV was almost certainly here before the testing was done in 2007. We were seeing deformed wings long before the carnica semen imports started in 2004. When the first varroa stepped ashore in 1999/2000, it was almost certainly carrying DWV.

Why was it decided to import carnica? Was it to expand the gene pool.

Why not buckfast or another type of Italian?

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David Yanke    49
Posted (edited)
As I mentioned in a previous post, I was told that MPI were trying to encourage a well known breeder to attempt some more semen imports. That was 2 or 3 years ago so don't know if they are still agreeable. The breeder declined due to the flack he copped from his first imports. He didn't want to face that again so the opportunity for improved genetics was lost.

 

That isn't quite the way it went down. MPI were quite encouraging, but my decision not to proceed was not because of the flack I received over the semen imports I made in 1988-89 from Western Australia, or the carnica semen imports from Germany and Austria 2004-06. In fact, I didn't get much flack, and the positive feedback far out wieghed the negative.

 

What happened was, I canvased the opinion of the Executive through Barry Foster, and I talked to Russel Berry about it. Both were against me proceeding because they feared it could introduce IAPV(Israeli Acute bee Paralysi Virus) which may help open the doors to Australian Honey Imports into NZ. MPI doesn't believe the introduction of IAPV would have any role in their decision making around Australian Honey Imports. Any way, Russel and others have put a huge amount of time, effort, and in Russel's case, his own money into fighting To keep imported honey out of NZ. I did not want to be seen as the guy who would put that all at risk by importing semen at that time. So I decided not to proceed. 18 months later, I accepted MPI's assertions that IAPV would have no role in the Imported Honey decision making, and I was offered the opportunity to go with Sue Cobey to Slovenia(a country whose national animal is the carnica honey bee) to collect semen from several breeding apiaries. I approached MPI again, and their attitude had completely changed(our new Industry Group has a lot more influence on MPI decision making now). The existing Import Health Standard(IHS) for Honey Bee Semen is specific for both Country of origin and race- so it only allowed carnica semen from either Austria or Germany to be imported into NZ. I applied to have Slovenia to be added to the list. They got back to me and said that would be a problem. A few days later they got back to me, and said there were other issues with the IHS, and that they needed some time to consider how to proceed. Then I heard that the IHS was no longer active, and that an entire new Risk Analysis would be required, and a new IHS would have to be drafted. So as it stands, there is no legal way to import Honey Bee Genetic Material into NZ, and it will remain that way for the forseable future. The first workable IHS that I used for the carnica semen imports took almost 15 years of work with MPI to get in place- I don't know if I have that kind of fight left in me. I will post more later on why I find this situation very concerning.

Edited by Guest

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JohnF    330
What that research showed was the number of alleles of a single gene. While it is an important gene because it determines sex, it is a gene that is a rampant mutator. There are at least 5000 genes in the Honey Bee genome, that work on the CSD gene can not be used to cast accurate judgement on the extent of variation across the entire genome.

 

Not quite 'rampant mutator' . . .the gene has a hypervariable region - but yes, more variation than other genes or regions of the DNA. The change in this region is something like a new allele every 400,000 years ! Further work by @Otto and the team has shown even more variation than originally thought by use of next generation sequencing.

 

Work is going on in Otago now looking at sequencing methods that will show the genetic variability across the whole genome. Personally I would say there is enough variation here currently to not require the importation of new genetics

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