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Posts posted by flash4cash

  1. 6 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

    Comvita a poor example. Even these guys can't make a profit. 

    They can not make a profit in beekeeping owning hives.  They can make an awesome profit in brand sales of honey. 


    They realise this which is why the want to exist the beekeeping part of the business.  No one suggesting they sell the Comvita brand. 

    • Agree 2
  2. What we have going on right now is desperation.  Most beekeepers are dead financially.  It makes it make no sense to be another brand selling honey in a jar.  Do not do that; that is dumb.  Race to the bottom. 


    Building a brand require significant financial investment and time. It takes years. 


    I disagree that the supermarket is the most powerful player. Comvita has the best brand for Manuka.  If the supermarket does not stock it then they lose sales.  That why they can charge the most for the same product in a different jar. International customers want Comvita, not Bob's manuka. 


    NZ needs one strong brand, probably Comvita.  That is it. We all invest and supply (and not over supply ) in that. 





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  3. 20 hours ago, Adam Boot said:

    I don't entirely agree with your opinion. 

    Strong brand = more sales = more purchases of honey = benefit to beekeeper

    Are you suggesting that beekeepers want to share the cost of creating and marketing brands and the risks associated? 

    I'm in the Netherlands at the moment.  We went to a supermarket.  In the fruit section there were 2 kiwi fruit for sale. 


    One was green the other gold.  The green kiwi fruit had no brand name and the packet was filled with fruit from south America.  The gold kiwi fruit was packed and owned by Zespri. 


    So the supermarket brought the cheapest green fruit yet had to pay up for the gold fruit.  As a kiwifruit grower which coloured fruit should I grow?  In nz if I want to buy a 1ha plot of kiwifruit which cost more to buy? The gold one because they are the brand owners and price setters.  If however I did not own a stake in Zespri however.  The managers of Zespri would want to source the cheapest fruit for their brand, so let's source it from south America.


    So beekeepers are the same it is the brand ownership that creates value and ensure it will be their honey in the jar. 


    Risk/return.  Without a stake in the brand it is 100% risk of no sales and longterm low return.


    Brands are the number one rule of being success in business. 


    I go on and on about it simply because it is the most important thing. 

    • Agree 3
  4. On 23/11/2019 at 1:29 PM, Adam Boot said:

    NZ only produces 1% of global honey consumption. We should be able to sell all we produce once we have re established markets and defined our points of difference. 

    Yes however the beekeeper needs a direct stake in the brand without the brand they will always remain poor, with no long term security.


    The brand owner is always the most powerful player in the game. It means sweet FA benefit if midland's honey has a strong brand.  Their owners, who ever they are will want all the benefit to go to them. 


    Until beekeepers smarten up, they will go round and round in circles. 

    • Like 1
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  5. 9 minutes ago, Rob Atkinson said:

    losing 20kgs

    You will be sexy before you know it




    My view is this the future need to be sold like this:


    1. Sugar is empty calories.  Honey is not.  It is the healthier sugar.  No one is quitting sugar unless they have too.  Why because sugar is a drug. 


    2. The future is protein, forget about making honey and make pollen instead. 

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  6. 3 hours ago, tony said:

    Is there research that oa gets rid of viruses?, I recieved the last results from the bee pathogen program couple days ago and I still have some very high virus loads well at least out of the group in particular dwv, and bqcv, bee weight was good at 18gm, and no mites in my samples these hives have been treated with oa/gly, not just that but it is part of my treatment. May be it needs long term exposure? I am definitely interested in what lowers virus levels, probably another topic there.

    There is a mushroom extract that can lower virus loads in bees. Sorry can not tell you more than that. Read it somewhere

  7. 7 minutes ago, Kiwi Bee said:


    Very silly management.

    Sell few hives for a quarter of the price or less and there is the money for the treatment.

    I agree.  Unfortunately not everyone makes the best decisions under pressure. It easy to become overwhelmed by the whole situation they find themselves in. 

    • Like 1
  8. 10 minutes ago, CraBee said:

    Otherwise a co-op is a bit like socialism, it sounds good, but the reality is a whole lot different.

    Co Op are what you make them.  A well preforming Co Op should be hard to beat on pay out. They can be terrible as well look at fonterra, does not focus on branded products but stays with commodities.  A co op to sell bulk honey will not be a worthwhile pursuit long term. 


    By the sounds of things the last co op failed as people stopped supplying it to chase the any honey into manuka game. That was a rare event and unlikely to be repeated again. Rules as I have mentioned before could also stop people bailing to protect everyone. 


    I sure you are aware that we belong to a co op. It fantastic we love it.  Sure we have a mumble here and there about things but overall we would not leave.  I am sure you would find the same with tatua, or zespri.  Why? because when done right co op are a great thing to be a part of. 


    To make this point clearer.  Our main competition in the goat infant formula game is the Dutch.  They supply a brand owner on a contract basis.  Our product sell for similar prices international.  Their payout they receive for their milk is 1/3 of ours.  That is right 33c in the dollar for what we get.  Why because we are part of a co op that owns the brands. 


    I am not suggesting that the margin is that big in the honey game.  But it is a valid point to make. 

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  9. 1 hour ago, Adam Boot said:

    I need to understand this? So you buy an existing brand Airbourne or A N Other - Now what makes that brand more successful byy buying the cooperatives Honey and paying a higher price for it?

    Option 2 probably requires option 1 first - Infrastructure platform and distribution to support the NPD


    Now how much money do you think you need for this venture?

    The brand is was already successful.  The beekeepers are now directing and selling their honey into it.  This allows them to actually sell honey each year with certainty and receive the best price for it.  A brand owner will always want to arbitrate the difference.  Co op ownership takes away this friction. 10's of millions are required for this. 


    Option 2 is harder.  I could see a few pop up with time, however I think it will unlikely make it to a co op model.  This could be done with less but take vastly more time at least 2/3 years. 



  10. A co op has 2 chances of succeeding in my book.  The 1st is for a group of beekeepers to buy out and existing strong brand like Airbourne for example.  


    The 2nd is to become innovative with the honey.  This means the honey will be a characteristic product and not the main ingredient.  Think something like Honey water. 


    Neither solution is a quick fix, nor will it be cheap. If you do not have capital to contribute you are not part of the solution sorry.


    You do not have to own the entire brand yourself.  You can bring in a distributor partner and go halved. 


    Distribution is the biggest challenge to any product.  Branding is also very challenging. To be successful you need to do the 2 together.

  11. 2 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

    beekeeping if you want to go down that path is who can be in and who cant? and who decides?


    Well in the goat industry after the 2nd major bust was simplify who is left standing. 


    They then spent 5 years or so milking goats for nothing, freezing the milk and driving it to the airport so it could be sent to Ozzy to go into infant formula trails. So it sorts out thouse that are committed to the game, money or nothing. 


    I suspect honey industry is about to experience a similar outcome.  With the right leadership nz honey could come back strong if they are smart.  Most of us however will not be here. 

    Let me just say the bees are fun but not everything in life.  Family, friends and your health are far more important.  There is respect to anyone whom decided to move on.  

    • Like 1
  12. Sorry to keep banging on about the goat industry but it worth highlighting 2 points from their quota model.  


    The first is if you do not do your quota then they have the discretion to charge you 1/3 of the payout on under supply.  


    Second is the board have the discretion to redeem your shares for 1 cent in the dollar.  So that stops anyone trying underhanded tactics like to put cow milk in the vat. 


    To my knowledge neither cause has even been implemented.  But you need sticks to keep people honest and for the co op greater good. 

    • Like 4
  13. 2 hours ago, Stoney said:

    Ummm.. don’t panic flash I’m pretty sure he’s referring to scale. 

    Probably.  My theory is that if you put 100% of your hives up for treatment you are going ball deep regardless of scale. 


    I also love that fact he drove 2 hours from taupo to drop me off 10 strips..twice 

    19 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:


    Hi Tony,  I tried cardboard (got them via maleme street- same supplier?) 

    Thought them pretty average- I trialed a site, 8 cards per hive and now full of those devils.  Feel that the card i used was a bit thick? Like the ox wasn't been distributed very well, maybe held in the card too long?  I can still taste the ox months later.  The gib have a larger surface area, and possibly release the ox much quicker (probably why you see bee death at first) 

     You still interested in some Formic?  

    I reckon they worked it was all I used last season for Autumn and did not even do a spring treatment. 

    • Like 1
  14. On 9/03/2019 at 1:07 PM, Philbee said:


    I commend your courage Paul

    Few on this form could even imagine the what you and James put on the line this season.

    Awe what about me?  You dropped of the thins and I asked what is the the success rate?


    Philbee  replys " not sure you are the 1st customer, tell me how they go" 

    • Haha 1
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