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frazzledfozzle

Am I being Negative

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As our industry continues to go through massive change I have a real sense that we are on a path to big problems.

With the increase of "corporate beekeeping" and "bee havers" that are in it for the money I see massive increases in bee health problems, everything from AFB to CCD.

I see more of us pushed off land and I can see a push for regulation of hive sites and numbers being implimented.

At first glance this looks like a great idea but when it comes down to it I believe the corporates will get preference over the small beekeeper.

As beekeepers get pushed their will be more poisoning of hives more vandalism more thefts.

 

Will the upcoming Manuka standard stem some of the madness or will it continue to be business as usual?

Or am I just being negative.

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Not negative at all @frazzledfozzle

. You have an opposing view to something. It depends on whether that something is positive or not,

I always value your opinion and thoughts on bee matters.

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Or am I just being negative.

Sorry @frazzledfozzle to tell you this but I've corralled nearly all the available negativity for my thoughts on the HSE Act. I doubt you'd find the bit that's left :crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap::crap:

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I wouldn't say you are negative, but pretty observant and...you can read the writing on the wall.

What I observe in suburban Auckland is an increase in colony population density. Plus the infill housing in the real estate market doesn't help. Trouble with that is that a lot of vegetation disappears and with that foraging for the bees and birds. Auckland is still 'green' compared to other cities but all this is rapidly disappearing. With so many bee colonies being so close to each other 'robbing' has become a real problem! I have recently moved house and 4 weeks before my final 'eviction' date (my landlord sold the house) I moved all my colonies off site to greener pastures in the Waitakeres. All bee gear went with them, but I had 'visitors' every day.

As for the corporates taking over foraging areas, I believe 'land owners' with bees should be given preference over 'land rentals'. I have seen several times now that lots of 50 to 100 hives get dumped just over the fence in a good foraging area and there just isn't enough to go around. Yes, greedy corporates should have a restriction on numbers and areas!

This is my first season I actually have to feed some colonies to get through winter :( and I don't take honey to sell as I need it for splitting.

What will happen IMHO it eventually will 'level' out as greedy 'honey producers' won't get their returns and will leave to new ventures. There will bee a 'crash' as colonies and gear will bee sold in fire sales and a further few years down the track the industry will 'normalise'. But some of us 'true' beekeepers may not enjoy the roller coaster ride ahead. :crap::crap::censored:

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and while all this is happening we have decided to turn our faith into the hands of an unknown entity.

but beekeepers only hold a % of the votes. if we are really that stupid maybe we deserve to be pushed out.

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Make no mistake, they will not disappear when the going gets tough. They simply have too much money invested to do that now.

I dont know if i completely agree with that, There are a fair few biggish behaviors that do not have chain of supply... They are in it for the money and I think they will disappear fairly quickly. While they have money invested, once the values tank all of a sudden they dont have enough capital to match their debit levels, one season of not paying the IRD or paying for varroa control they will be out of the picture. I also get the feeling that once a beek gets liquidated there will be relatively little value to recover, second hand gear is worthless and varroa control chemicals (and the labour to put them in) is expensive....

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Will the upcoming Manuka standard stem some of the madness or will it continue to be business as usual?

it will certainly put the brakes on. they will loose a big chunk of income and may well find they can no longer pay the big $$$ for sites like they are currently doing.

however thats only the export market, local market might get dumped on depending on if they can export all the non-manuka honey straight away.

 

MPI better be ready to do a lot of testing as i'm sure there is plenty of people who will be sneaking around the rules. probably find a lot more artificial MGO being added.

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If 85% of honey exported is labelled as Manuka it doesnt look good for anyone who produces other honey when the standard is set.

Most of the corporates are in the Manuka market im sure they will be able to fiddle with things to make it work for them

 

 

. I don't see how any form of site regulation could be implemented fairly.

 

I dont think it will be fair I think it will favor the corporates and I think it will be brought in.

There are people already calling for regulation

Now we have one " united" body representing us it wont be hard for the big guns to vote in this type of regulation.

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If 85% of honey exported is labelled as Manuka it doesnt look good for anyone who produces other honey when the standard is set.

Most of the corporates are in the Manuka market im sure they will be able to fiddle with things to make it work for them

 

 

 

I dont think it will be fair I think it will favor the corporates and I think it will be brought in.

There are people already calling for regulation

Now we have one " united" body representing us it wont be hard for the big guns to vote in this type of regulation.

 

We are the 99%.

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We are the 99%.

How do you work that out.

The voting is weighted in favour of more hives more votes. The majority of beekeeper have the lesser quantity of hives, so less voting powers. 3 or 4 large commercials will have the real power.

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I absolutely agree about land owners getting first right over land renters but I also think as the larger number are rural?? there should be boundary set back rules. The little fellow with disease can be just as destructive as the corporate from my point of view -the bees don't care about the money they will/can rob and spead disease irrespectively. The bee industry at the moment actually reminds me of the dairy a few years back. International prices sky rocket and other countries will up production and we are yet again in agriculture on the supply and demand roller coaster ride. Same #### different day as they say.

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The impossible dream would be a capping of corporate hive number expansion. It does need to happen but so obviously will not! The smaller commercials are definitely under threat of being squeezed.

Oh how I love our local biggies...not! Over 100 hives dumped within 5 k's of a little site of mine, 40 within 200 metres! That's only what is easily visible. Purple/blue/mauve shades.....anyone putting up their hand?

I'm sure there will be some settling of prices, honey, hives and all with more control exerted on the Manuka marketing but the bigger worry is the corporate control of the industry by stealth through a 'united body'

I am not convinced at all that NZ has too many hives. How they are being managed by larger operators is really the problem in my humble opinion.

Dumping and moving of very large hive numbers is a problem that is and will get worse. Perhaps if any regulation is to be considered this is the area of operation it should be applied to. Certainly the health of hives needs to be assured in a better fashion if they are to be moved about as they are. It is a recipe for disaster on a very big scale.

1/Cap corporate hive expansion.

2/Make independant hive health certificates mandatory (ohh theres a whole new industry!) for each hive going to dump sites and movements.

 

Bracing myself ...................

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As it stands at the moment we have an undersupplied local market with consumption way down because of massive price hikes. We have corporate beekeepers with no knowledge or regard for ethics let alone any knowledge of proper stocking rates. We have an oversupplied world market with extremely low honey prices, prices that most of us couldn't survive on. We have one specialty honey some of which works very well for curing things like leg ulcers and as a wound dressing. It has lots of other perceived benefits, none of which are proven and most of which are spurious. We have at least three very serious bee pathogens right on our doorstep and a bio security service proven to be if not totally inept then certainly seriously wanting.

Oh and we also have varoa being improperly treated in ever increasing numbers of hives by more and more and inexperienced Wally's (and plenty who should know better). Our easy use treatments were already showing signs of failing but this should speed it up nicely.

How's that for negative.

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Our easy use treatments were already showing signs of failing but this should speed it up nicely..

 

This would change things fairly quickly, imagine trying to treat mites in a large number of hives without the 3 synthetics.

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@ john berry, There is a very wise saying "what goes up must come down". From my many years of experience I'd say some larger beekeepers are going to get to see some red ink on the balance sheets. Moving large number of hives onto small nectar sources will not cut it, as most of the limited amounts of collected nectar goes to feeding the brood first and foremost, only after that requirement is met will the beekeeper see any honey in the supers above to collect for themselves.

 

A ruthless commercial beekeeper can never financially ruin a small beekeeper who does not rely on honey production for a living, a smaller beekeeper will just wait around until the commercial has gone broke and then he will start selling his/her honey locally again.

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@ john berry, There is a very wise saying "what goes up must come down". From my many years of experience I'd say some larger beekeepers are going to get to see some red ink on the balance sheets. Moving large number of hives onto small nectar sources will not cut it, as most of the limited amounts of collected nectar goes to feeding the brood first and foremost, only after that requirement is met will the beekeeper see any honey in the supers above to collect for themselves.

 

A ruthless commercial beekeeper can never financially ruin a small beekeeper who does not rely on honey production for a living, a smaller beekeeper will just wait around until the commercial has gone broke and then he will start selling his/her honey locally again.

I agree to a certain extent. I think disease proliferation will become a big issue as the red ink sneaks in.... Disease checking/treatment is expensive... And to a non beekeeper will be the first to go....

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The impossible dream would be a capping of corporate hive number expansion. It does need to happen but so obviously will not! The smaller commercials are definitely under threat of being squeezed.

Oh how I love our local biggies...not! Over 100 hives dumped within 5 k's of a little site of mine, 40 within 200 metres! That's only what is easily visible. Purple/blue/mauve shades.....anyone putting up their hand?

I'm sure there will be some settling of prices, honey, hives and all with more control exerted on the Manuka marketing but the bigger worry is the corporate control of the industry by stealth through a 'united body'

I am not convinced at all that NZ has too many hives. How they are being managed by larger operators is really the problem in my humble opinion.

Dumping and moving of very large hive numbers is a problem that is and will get worse. Perhaps if any regulation is to be considered this is the area of operation it should be applied to. Certainly the health of hives needs to be assured in a better fashion if they are to be moved about as they are. It is a recipe for disaster on a very big scale.

1/Cap corporate hive expansion.

2/Make independant hive health certificates mandatory (ohh theres a whole new industry!) for each hive going to dump sites and movements.

 

Bracing myself ...................

While you may have a couple of points here, I feel your approach to solving the problem is flawed.

In a free and competitive market you cannot put a Cap on growth as such, however you could legislate for animal health in a way that in effect controls growth.

In other words, you can grow as big as you are wise enough and clever enough to be, but no more.

 

 

imagine trying to treat mites in a large number of hives without the 3 synthetics.

Dont imagine it, Start seriously considering it.

Every Beek should be developing there own arsenal of treatments and controls.

"Only the paranoid will survive"

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Dont imagine it, Start seriously considering it.

Every Beek should be developing there own arsenal of treatments and controls.

"Only the paranoid will survive"

Im already at that point.... I figure the less varroa in the hive the better irrespective of the time of year.... So I am trialing what ever works!

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I trialed oxalic acid and vapouriser in feb/march for 3 weeks.

I had quite a varroa drop on the white board each time.

However when I put bayvarrol in in april I had an enormous drop.

I changed the inspection trays every few days and varroa kept showing for a month.

The hives crashed some what.

Currently they have low nos , healthy brood and healthy young bees but all the old ones are gone.

I think I should have treated for more weeks and I missed varroa in capped brood.

I shall try next year with a better regime

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I trialed oxalic acid and vapouriser in feb/march for 3 weeks.

I had quite a varroa drop on the white board each time.

However when I put bayvarrol in in april I had an enormous drop.

I changed the inspection trays every few days and varroa kept showing for a month.

The hives crashed some what.

Currently they have low nos , healthy brood and healthy young bees but all the old ones are gone.

I think I should have treated for more weeks and I missed varroa in capped brood.

I shall try next year with a better regime

I tried a little OA... Not much tho... Im going to give drone capture a good go this year... Will report back....

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Why are so many folk seemingly determined to not use MAQS ?

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Why are so many folk seemingly determined to not use MAQS ?

I expect cost is a factor, I wondered if I was being ripped off, how does cost compare in markets where there is competition? Aside from cost, the smallest tub is quite a big one, so it becomes a big experiment; you can NOT buy only two strips. We only got our tub as an extra; after already completing most autumn treatments with apivar. I didn't like the number of dead bees on our first attempts, but it was toward the upper temperature limit (29C) so I'll be interested to see how we go in the Spring towards lower end of temperature band. But what I can say for sure is that MAQS are easy to use as any strip (easier) and faster (one week) and if you can't get back to take out the strip it does not matter. I'm feeling optimistic that MAQS could become our main form of Spring treatment. Autumn is a work in progress. Bayvarol is still working for us as a backup on occassion when mite count is stubbornly high after treatment with apivar. Using MAQS may allow us to keep the other options going. I don't want to try the MAQS in our Nuc's, but that could eventually change with more experience. The real test will be to see if we buy the big tub next time.

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This autumn for the first time in many years my bees got treated with Bayvarol. Haven't used either bayvarol or apistan, the other SP, for many years so thought there would be no immunity and was expecting a good result.

 

In nearly all hives it has worked well. But in just a few, it has not. In some hives there are still signs of mites, this despite the bayvarol being inside use by date, and installed at 4 strips per brood box spread among the brood frames. I think all the hives will make it through to the spring treatment which will be apivar, however it has certainly got me to thinking what the future holds.

 

Re the big corporates going broke, I doubt it. Already I know some of their sites get a pitifully small honey harvest and the beekeeping generally can be pretty rough, but because they export their own label and get massive money per kilo they still do well.

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OA is a knock down and needs to be used continuously or you will miss the mites in the brood.

Ive now developed my continuous vaporizer to the point where I can whip around an apiary squirting vapor into hives.

Ive just got in from doing 20 nucs/ hives in the dark.

Takes about 10 minutes for the machine to heat up and about ten minutes to do the treating. (20 hives)

The machine is much more than a kettle with a pipe spout and in fact contains some serious gadgetry which has cost a reasonable amount of time and money to get right.

After dinner Im out to do another 30 odd hives.

When broodless they will get another blast.

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The machine is much more than a kettle with a pipe spout and in fact contains some serious gadgetry which has cost a reasonable amount of time and money to get right.

Care to share ?

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