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frazzledfozzle

Prison inmates are training to become beekeepers at a time hive theft is rampant. fairfax media

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There will obviously be some people who will not re-offend but it's a minority, rather than any large number and its certainly not the norm. Recividivity is running at 50 to 70%.

Rehabilitation on its own is not that effective, its works better when combined with strict institutional routines and that means locking people up.

 

The people types are:

 

Complete one off - victim of circumstance. Likelihood to re-offend low. Percentage of prisoners = minute.

 

Those influenced by peer group, social economic and demographic. Highly likely to re-offend if not completely removed from external circumstances, but model in behaviour when they are removed. Percentage of prisoners moderate.

 

Institutionalised. Re-offend to get back inside because they can't cope with external life. Want to be fed, housed, kept warm and operate with routine, even enjoy having friends inside. Percentage of prisoners low.

 

Health (both long and short term issues). Long term will be likely to re-offend, short term health issues are not likely to re-offend. Percentage of prisoners medium.

 

 

Your points @Kiwifruiter are actually valid, but the reasoning and figues you were using was way out, which is why I was interested. You gave a politicial or idealistic viewpoint, to back your argument rather than a real one.

 

I think this is an over simplification, age plays a big factor. Generally people mellow out after 45 years or so. I can only remember 1 guy over 50 being arrested when I worked in the burglary squad for the Police.

 

I firmly in the camp of "lock 'em up and throw away the key" for serious offending, rape, murder, etc. and especially for any offending which seems to be compulsive and incurable (i.e. paedophilia) but that is about punishment, justice, and prevention for me in these cases, not what may be socially or economically prudent. However for lesser crimes long term rehab is the only option unless we want to pay a lot more taxes. I don't.

 

Even as a teetotaller I certainly don't view any drug use related offence as a crime, I don't really care what politicians or the legislation says on the matter. However acting dangerously while inebriated should definitely be a crime (DIC, driving while stoned, etc.) it's high time we smartened up about the "war on drugs".

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We do not have the death penalty in NZ, so at some stage virtually all of those at present in jail will be released back into society.

Even those in Psychiatric wards or preventative detention are re-evaluated. They could well re offend BUT and here's the thing THEY WILL be released so as far as I'm concerned any retraining and support programs must be beneficial in the long run.

 

I think it's inevitable that the NZ beekeeping industry in general will become more regulated and controlled.

With the huge increase in Beeks, Hives, sites etc in the last 5 years it will happen.

When beekeeping becomes a more structured industry there will be better protocols for this type of situation. (Hopefully).

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I can only remember 1 guy over 50 being arrested when I worked in the burglary squad for the Police.

 

with the current rate of arrests made for burglary Im not at all surprised you can only remember one over 50.

all the rest are still out there stealing with no worries about being caught.

 

 

I think it's inevitable that the NZ beekeeping industry in general will become more regulated and controlled.

With the huge increase in Beeks, Hives, sites etc in the last 5 years it will happen.

When beekeeping becomes a more structured industry there will be better protocols for this type of situation. (Hopefully).

 

Probably a topic for a different thread but dont know how to do that and link back to this comment.

I think you are 100% correct about more regulation of our industry.

but I dont welcome it.

I believe the honey production industry in particular will become the domain of the big players, the smaller players will be forced out by regulations regarding where and how many hives can be put in an area and also by the amount of money changing hands not just for private land but for areas of DOC estate which will be put up for tender and taken over by iwi and large corporates that have tens of thousands of hives to place.

 

Its already started to happen.

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True, yet change will happen nothing surer, it's one of the 3 constants of life, after living and death.

The more robust discussion we have about it the more likely the outcome will be palatable. (hopefully)

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Its already started to happen.

Certainly has. eg beek company directors now carry H & S can they never used to..

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Just because they are training inmates to be beekeepers doesn't mean when these inmates get out they will go and steal beehives to start their own business, if given a chance I think these guys can be beneficial to the industry instead of the turn your back on them attitude that some kiwis have, as beekeepers we tend to go on about the changing face of nz beekeeping with the huge amount of foreigners entering our industry now a small solution comes up to fix that and we complain about that too :thumbdown:

I totally agree - 1 bee thief doesn't mean every inmate is going to go out and steal multiple hives. If we took that attitude we wouldn't give any prisoners training!! Poverty is often a motivating factor to crime and I love that prisons are teaching inmates cooking skills, farming skills and beekeeping skills. We should be receptive to giving them a chance - do the crime, pay your dues and hopefully leave with a qualification or trade so you don't end up back inside!!

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So did I frazzledfozzle but a whole generation before me didn't - many wasted the opportunity, some dropped out and we respect those who made good. I tell every one of the distraught parents I see as a teacher who are anxious their child is 'dropping out' that the beauty of education is that we can participate at any age . . . otherwise many of us would not be beekeeping - and I didn't learn in jail :-)

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mmm if I was in jail and studied accountcy will that make me a better white collar crim?, I think that the honey industry will follow dairy and end up crashing in a few years time, we are already seeing the aussies trying too muscle in on manuka. But on the training of prisoners i think give a man a chance we can all make a mistake once. Some one told me recently smart folk learn from other peoples mistakes stupid people only learn from their own. I am not sure if the guy featured in the video is also the same one who was convicted of wild life smuggling but who e3ver is stealing hives will come undone

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I think it is a great idea to try and give them some skills to have a career when they come out.

Why not train them as cashiers in banks or pharmacists with keys to the drug cabinet or head tasters in a alcohol distillery or as sales persons in gunshops like hunting and fishing with keys to the ammo cabinets? Why does it have to bee beekeeping?

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Why does it have to bee beekeeping?

Because beekeeping is a growth industry in nz and lacking skilled/semi-skilled labour so offers them a real chance at employment and therefore a real chance to get their lives back ..at least.. until the big crash of 20?? comes around.

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Why not train them as cashiers in banks or pharmacists with keys to the drug cabinet or head tasters in a alcohol distillery or as sales persons in gunshops like hunting and fishing with keys to the ammo cabinets? Why does it have to bee beekeeping?

 

As an ex Corrections Officer, your comments are quite silly and without merit. If you knew of the back ground history, of some of the person's in custody you might refrain from making the above comments.

Most people are good, on a bad day we are all capable of making mistakes that have consequences that we cannot foresee.

Life is not black and white, there is a lot of grey.:)

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With the same background, I concur. Top Answer.

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For the sake of this conversation going south I withdraw my comment.

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With the same background, I concur. Top Answer.

Fairly sure I got absolutely flamed for a similar comment early in the thread....

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For the sake of this conversation going south I withdraw my comment.

Too late it's already in Nelson.....

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It is black and white as far as Im concerned.

A job applicant provides CV.

CV is put in one pile or the other.

One pile gets interview

One pile doesnt.

A sure fire way to get your CV in the wrong pile would be to disclose a jail term for

Drugs

Violence

fraud

Theft

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Fairly sure I got absolutely flamed for a similar comment early in the thread....

Not quite. Your comments were about rehab and stats around, which were on the rose tinted side. ;)

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You were a corrections officer Grant?

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It may be worth mentioning that its not that easy to get into jail these days.

One needs to make a determined effort.

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You were a corrections officer Grant?

Yes but not in New Zealand.

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It may be worth mentioning that its not that easy to get into jail these days.

One needs to make a determined effort.

my neighbors making a real good effort at getting in but it has not happened yet

the rest of the community are hoping he will eventually succeed

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Yes but not in New Zealand.

So... Not overly applicable to NewZealand then ;-)

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Our local prison had a beekeeping training scheme going for a while from memory about 15 years ago. They spent I believe half a million setting it up. It was a colossal failure with most of the hives been stolen not by one of the prisoners but by one of the (starts with G but I will leave it out because I can't prove it)s. This came to light when I had to deal with a massive AFB outbreak amongst a local beekeepers hives. He was a good beekeeper who had just died and I was left to clean up the mess. Most of his hives were rendered valueless because of the outbreak which we tracked down to dead robbed out hives that had been -relocated- from the prison and while we destroyed the hives that caused the outbreak the rest of them disappeared before any action was taken.

I find I have a foot in both camps. I fully support the death penalty for really serious offenders and yet I am equally keen on rehabilitation for those that can be rehabilitated. If I had any complaints about what they are doing teaching beekeeping in prisons it would be that it is likely to be the same as teaching beekeeping at learning institutions. I have known several people that have been through these types of courses. Regretfully I have never been impressed with the results and most that go on to succeed as beekeepers do so in spite of their training rather than because of it.

For the record I have given training to an ex-inmate and would do so again on an individual basis.

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