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Does Oxalic Acid work in NZ?


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Grant I dont think it's right to say it's not viable here .

 

I see what you mean about the benefits of it fitting within an IPM. But rather than saying its not viable, I said its probably not that viable or cost effective. Let me quantify that:

 

If I use treatment X, I have to use 2 treatments = extra visits, twice the cost. If I use Oxalic acid, I have to use another treatment = extra visits, twice the cost. If I use treatment Y, I can do it in one hit = two visits, reduced cost. Then add the precautions that have to be taken, the documentation needed, the PSE gear needed.... I dont think that's going to appeal to the majority, especially the hobbiest.

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I just here tell how oxalic acid treament works. So you don't need to invent it yourself. In Europe this is very common practice. It has been used commercially over 10 years.

 

However You have discussed about the issue without proper information.

 

Trickling was invented in Italy by professor Nanetti.

 

In summer recommended stuffs are formic acid and thymol. During yield period nothing.

 

- dust sugar does not work

- neither drone culling

 

One reseacher mentioned that it has been tested 140 different chemicals against varroa.

 

In Europe no one use trickling in brooding hives because it makes more harm than varroa itself

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I happen to know our NZ research teams have tried a lot of "overseas" suggestions and determined what is best for general NZ conditions. There are NZ requirements to follow what has been permitted for use in NZ and these are governed by regulations, MAF, OSH, NZFSA, etc. It behoves NZ beekeepers to KNOW what these are and to generally only treat overseas ideas as just that. Ideas. Read what and how you can legally do things IF you want to sell your honey in packs or in bulk to NZ honey buyers and packers. Also if you actually want to have any hives left because unsuccessful results with overseas methods just might be costly mistakes that could easily have been avoided. NZ has some excellent MAF produced books indicating what has been tested and deemed appropriate for NZ conditons. Some of the treatment methods included in these are what you can LEGALLY do here. If it's not there it just may (probably) not be approved for NZ use anyway. So no matter how well meaning overseas comment is, please consult the lawful NZ methods FIRST and LAST.

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That legally is funny thing. For example UK import Italian 6% oxalic acid. It is not suitable for bees, but if you add to it half water, and it is 3%, it is illegal. (in theory only)

 

Oxalic acid rise honey's natural content so little that you cannot measure it. Carrot has 100 x more oxalic acid as honey.

 

European Union does not follow oxalic acid content because it is meaninglessin honey.

 

"So no matter how well meaning overseas comment is," Europe goes over ten years ahead America and UK in varroa issues. The sea between UK and Continen Europe has a distance 20 miles. UK thinks that it si so unic, that it cannot even read "European" reports even if they have not a sigle own research.

 

Canada accepted last summer European Union recommendations in varroa treatment even if they are allready udes commercially 10 years.

 

Varroa has been in New Zealand 12 years. Now you are wiser that whole rest wold together.

 

Things cannot go this way. Canada has delayed its "official" recommendations and it has cost a huge amount of dad hives.

 

No one offend UK folks with prison, but it is in somebody's interest. Some one want sell to you 3 dollar treament but you may do it with 30 cents youself. Business is somehow connected to this "don't go jail" game.

 

But the same guys who want to warn you about "new dangerous methods", why they recommend 15 years old unefficient methods which no oje use any more. Say why? And that gugu has done a single reaseach conserning varroa. He just have a opinion because he has a post where to say.

 

Oxalic Acid trickling is the most friendly varroa treatment method to bees, to beekeepers and to customers. If you use it, no one can even measure later have you used or not. The rise in honey's natural oxalic acid content is about 1-2% unist and carrot has 100 fold content oxalic acid.

 

All these has been carefully measured during 10 researching years in European Union Varroa Group which started 1998. In previous year 1997 Italian professor Antonio Nanetti invented the method.

 

.

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I hope you noticed i was not recommending, just letting you know what some use over here. I'll shut up and not post again.

Eb

Eb, unless your post is quoted directly, you can't assume that the comments directly below your post were aimed at you. As I see it, the comments were a general reflection on the topic as a whole.

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What happened to the "going to prison post", I was really wondering if someone could explain what that was about?

 

I wrote it as a joke. "Against law" card has been shown in many forums even if the chemical has been used 10 years in each country. It is often decorated with words "our nation" or something. Even if national beekeeping society gives advices how to use the method, some get idea that it is against the law.

 

Nowadays ideas spread quickly with internet, but it is painfull to find them. I have colected best researched information to the Finnish beekeeping forum. Unfortunately links often vanish.

 

Unfortunately guys change the adcives just according their own head. They do not feel responsibilyty to give value to the work which reseachersd have done during 10 years or something. Lack of chemistry knowledge is one reason, why guys are afraid and do not understand what the stuff is.

 

It has said too, that I have difficulties to inform the facts bacause I am behind a language barries. Sure. All my information has been published in English by original researchers. But guys do not mind read the links. They have a big EGO.

 

http://bee.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=english

 

. I am jiihoo in that forum.

.

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I can't believe all the topics that have zero replies on that site. Thankfully you will get some form of response here.

The prison post was removed because it had no relation to any other post here. It may have been an inside joke to Finman but as he is the only one who would have understood it, it was deleted so it didn't antagonise others.

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NZ has specific laws about what sort of treatments can be used in the production of foods. This includes the apiculture industry. MAF recommendations are in many instances legal requirements and producers need to meet NZFSA (NZ Food Safety Authority) requirements. How far we are behind or ahead of overseas "advisors" is irrelevant in this regard. If you want to produce honey for selling, or even giving away to persons outside your immediate family, the honey has to be produced according to lawful requirements using legally approved methods and using approved remedies, chemicals etc. Once a person gets beyond 1 or 2 hives they are definitely producing more honey than their immediate family can eat, so some of their honey will end up being sold or given away. Honey buyers and processors have a legal requirement to get from the honey producers, a legal Honey crop declaration of procedures used for their honey production. It's a lot of red tape and some like me who have produced and eaten honey for years don't see that it improves the honey at all, but NZ exports a huge amount of it's annual honey crop and we have export regulations and market requirements to adhere to. Your honey crop is worthless if it's not produced correctly by and to NZ standards. Get the information on what to use and how to treat from NZ sources; The NBA, MAF/AsureQuality, NZFSA. They all have web-sites. The information is readily available.

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it seems that even discussion about oxalic acid is againts law.

 

I signed me in here to correct wrong information what I read here abaut varroa.

Now i get a law boon in front of me.

i see that according to law you can abbuse oxalic acid as a stupid method but correct information is against law.

 

i am really tired to go this kind of discussion. too tired. This is not first time.

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, vain d3111, that people cannot take, and we in Finland uses, ,

NZ has specific laws about what sort of treatments can be used in the production of foods. This includes the apiculture industry. MAF recommendations are in many instances legal requirements and producers need to meet NZFSA (NZ Food Safety Authority) requirements. How far we are behind or ahead of ov

 

es; The NBA, MAF/AsureQuality, NZFSA. They all have web-sites. The information is readily available.

 

yes yes and yes. We here in Europe we do not live in caves either. We obey European Union Laws in beekeeping. there are high living standard countries there like Sweden. Germany and Swizerland. We for excample in Finland obey same laws. But our law does not say that I must be stupid. Irak says that women cannot drive car. Britain said to Indians that they cannot take salt from their sea.

 

I have gone these debates through on British forum for years. Thanks for your advices. It is better change your laws if they are not updated.

 

We gove up Apistan 10 years ago and our bees do fine. We have had mites about 35 years.

once beekeeping society said that it is forbidden to import Carciolan bees to the country. Now it is second most popular race in Finland.

 

but vain debating. keep flags high!

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The place for NZ Beekeeping information booklets http://nba.org.nz/publications includes..

"Control of Varroa.

Control of Varroa is a guide for New Zealand beekeepers on how to control Varroa in your hives. The revised edition is based on the original version of the manual and includes seven years experience of managing Varroa in the North Island of New Zealand. It also includes the results of research carried out in New Zealand and the rest of the world."

This book discusses various methods of varroa control - as researched by NZ apicultural scientists under NZ conditions. It provides treatment details spanning various chemical options (including oxalis) and those that meet NZ and NZFSA regulations.

The NBA web-page http://nba.org.nz/publications lists information on several booklets about beekeeping in NZ, to NZ industry requirements, based on practical and scientifically tested experience. These publications are good a place to start for information, and every beekeeper in NZ should build up a libary of books about local beekeeping subjects. I'd recommend all NZ beekeepers start with these books BEFORE acquiring books or using information in magazine articles about overseas beekeeping. Once experience with these is under your belt then you will be better equiped to filter the useful and the irrelevant from what you read in overseas publications, and from well meaning advice. The NZ beekeeping industry has an enviable few diseases of bees compared to overseas. New beekeepers here have a simpler task in what to inspect their bees for and New Zealand publications are therefore more explicit to NZ conditions. Some of our PMS (Pest Management Strategies) for example our AFB eradication procedure, are unique to NZ. Once confidence is gained on how to do things in NZ and why they are done that way, then is the time to investigate further. There are many organisms that might asail us should our border control efforts fail, or some person or event (such as how varroa got here, or the deformed wing virus) cause a breech in our national bio-security. Many NZ beekeepers do feel the risk assessment basis is inadequate but that is another and highly political subject because to the types of trade agreements our governments have signed. Once the usual is known it is possible to perceive the unusual and that is when alarm bells can ring. The NBA also has a regular publication that keeps NZ beekeepers advised on developments that affect all beekeepers here.

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Taken from another thread

 

The internet' date=' cutting edge technological advances in beekeeping, industrialised agriculture and ad nauseum. What have they delivered ? CCD, Varroa, queens that last one season rather then five, antibiotics in hives and so on. Perhaps it is time we listened to the advice of those that have been in the industry for decades rather then people like myself who have only been around for one or two. Am really keen to hear the thoughts and advice from those of you who have been in the industry long enough to have learnt something (20 years plus). Starting with the very basics would be nice (I'm listening)![/quote']

 

We gove up Apistan 10 years ago and our bees do fine. We have had mites about 35 years

 

seven years experience of managing Varroa in the North Island of New Zealand

 

The voice of experience has not been using some of these chemicals longer than our time of research. I would hate to lose some one with Finman's experience. So often we so something because that was how we were taught to do it, that was the way our teacher was taught to do it so it becomes the accepted thing to do. Then we question another method that achieves the same goal without questioning our own methods.

 

Already the question is being asked "what do we do when the tried and trusted chemicals fail?" and we cant answer "nothing if it aint legal"

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, !n, II can see with eyes of soul a Buddha sitting on the law book. You have given you possibilities and business future to the arms of loved Buddha.

 

i cannot see that in modern democratic society some guy may have a position of the God.

the God of varroa. you are 10 years after advanced countries. If I were running business in that kind of business environment I would be desparate. The secret is to keep the keys of competition in your hands and not in Buddha's leggs.

 

seems more than bad...

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, !n, II can see with eyes of soul a Buddha sitting on the law book. You have given you possibilities and business future to the arms of loved Buddha.

 

i cannot see that in modern democratic society some guy may have a position of the God.

the God of varroa. you are 10 years after advanced countries. If I were running business in that kind of business environment I would be desparate. The secret is to keep the keys of competition in your hands and not in Buddha's leggs.

 

seems more than bad...

 

I'm not entirely sure what this is to do with beekeeping, so please keep on track. I'd also like to point out that we can use Oxalic in NZ legally. It is not an offence and no-one will go to prison, but we have to abide by the rules of its use for safety. The point being repeatedly made by our beekeeping specialists and scientists is that it cannot be used as a treatment by itself, because in trials here its not effective enough on its own.

 

As a beekeeper, my personal thought is therefore why bother if you have to treat with something else too? Others may think differently and are free to use Oxalic acid as a "natural" method of varroa control if they wish.

 

The point being made by Beehavn is that people are free to use it if they want to, but he is suggesting that they do so as guided by NZ scientists, the governing body and their trials. When people reference international papers, some things are not applicable here. His advice is to check locally .....and that is sound advice.

 

I don't think there is any further need for the backwards and forwards, pro's and con's and I definitely don't think it has anything to do with Buddha.

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Coming late to the table...I appreciate red tape. Well actually I don't as a UK farmer but there you go. Much of it is there for a reason - sometimes wrong but there you go. The thymol late summer/oxalic acid around the shortest day works here pretty well. Interestingly the NZ Varroa book is one our exam booklist!

 

The main issue being that whilst Italian bees are suited to the NZ climate they don't have a brood-free period. I know it's heresy but that's one place the Carni (and British Black) bees rate...they do suspend brooding mid-winter (though this winter's been very strange and I'd say most nests have a little brood). This makes oxalic efficacious.

 

And Finman whilst making really useful comments on many issues really can't grasp that the UK doesn't have a five month ice-age in winter. But hey, he does winter in the same hemisphere ;)

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As a beekeeper, my personal thought is therefore why bother if you have to treat with something else too? .

 

For me the reason would be twofold,

firstly if I treat with Bayvarol/Apistan in the Autumn and have resistant mites by the time spring comes around my bees are going to be pretty screwed if I do a mid-winter Oxalic dribble I get to kill most of the mites on the bees, I know it wont kill mites in brood but midwinter there's not alot of brood anyway and if it has a detrimental effect on brood I'm not too worried because I dont need that brood anyway and if it kills the brood it will also kill the mites in the brood.

 

The other reason for using Oxalic or Formic or whatever "natural" alternative I choose is to get some idea of how it works in my location what effect if any it has on mites, we can't go on using the same ol same ol and hope resistance dosn't come because it's here, now, what are we all going to do?

whats your plan for the day you find your hive infested with mites after a treatment?

The reason we have resistant mites in the first place is because beekeepers took the easy route and used one chemical twice a year, year after year and I'll bet there's beekeepers out there still doing it Why? because it's easy it's no hassle and it works but one day soon it wont work and then it gets hard really hard and I wonder whos going to stick around.

How many of us who make our living out of bees will be able to cope when our synthetic treatments no longer work?

 

( when I say you I mean us, we, everyone )

 

Cheers frazz:)

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As a beekeeper, my personal thought is therefore why bother if you have to treat with something else too?

 

What Frazz said.

 

I believe we need to change our thinking. We've been relying on twice yearly knockout punches. What happens when our knockout punch becomes a swing and miss? You're going to need some fancy footwork and alternate combinations ready in waiting when that happens, or accept that you're going to go down hard and fast.

 

Barring new high effectiveness treatments, the thinking is going to have to change from those occasional big hits to the varroa population, to ongoing smaller impacts from a combination of strategies., which is an approach that should be much more sustainable long term anyway.

 

I'm also aiming* to trial oxalic this winter in my hives, and I'll be very keen to see how results in my climate compare to Frazz's. *Aiming - can't say for sure I'll get to it at this stage, but I hope to.

 

The idea of oxalic dribbling on swarms is a great one - perfect opportunity there.

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It depends on where you are in NZ regardling broodless hives AND even within one apiary with NZ Italian bees you can have hives that are broodless and others that have several frames of brood in mid winter. This simply means if all the hives were treated similarly with say oxalis the results would be almost random. To get uniformity of treatment with oxalis the hives with brood would need to have the brood frames removed and melted down/destroyed, before treating with methods recommended by our NZ Apicultural scientists. Interesting that the books they produce are used in the UK as exam texts. That says something to me about the NZ approach and it indicates our beekeepers (especially the new comers to the industry whether hobbyists or aiming commercial) can use this to their advantage.

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. To get uniformity of treatment with oxalis the hives with brood would need to have the brood frames removed and melted down/destroyed,before treating with methods recommended by our NZ Apicultural scientists

 

If it came down to losing a hive through varroa infestation or weakening a hive through opening up the brood nest in winter and dragging a couple of frames out to run a capping scratcher over it then I would go with the latter I dont see the need to destroy or melt out brood frames.

I will also be trialling oxalic acid on queen nucs to see what sort or result I get on mite numbers/build up and on queen mortality.

 

 

Beehavn I'm curious as to what methods you will employ when you have resistant mites in your outfit?

 

cheers

frazz

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now we're getting somewhere.....

 

And as a result I have a question. I understand we have to think differently, but the argument I hear is that resistance has built up from people not treating properly and if everyone alternated their chemicals we'd not have such a problem.

 

Then I hear the very same beekeepers say "these strips are brilliant, keep them in all year you'll get a lower mite count".....I want to scream my frustration at them - literally!

 

So if Oxalic is as good as its being touted

  • Why doesn't the rest of the world use it as the miracle cure for dealing with varroa?
  • And why do we recommend using additional treatments with it because its not affective enough?

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now we're getting somewhere.....

 

So if Oxalic is as good as its being touted

  • Why doesn't the rest of the world use it as the miracle cure for dealing with varroa?
  • And why do we recommend using additional treatments with it because its not affective enough?

 

 

- what do you meant by rest of the world and what is that another part which uses

- you mean that if it not a final solution, you do not want hear about it

 

you really have very hostile and odd attitude to new knowledge. If some one want to tell you something,

everything must go according your wishes. I cannot believe my eyes. Problems are yours. not mine. My varroa problem is under control for long time. even law cannot stop me killing my mites. I did not come here to ask help or to be prosecuted.

 

Remember. problem is yours and solution is out there

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