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frazzledfozzle

Manuka standards

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@@tony are you still producing medical grade honey or is their no demand for it?

 

Yea we are still producing it but we have not sold it for over a year now, with all the prices gone bit crazy it has meant there are very little premiums in it and we can often sell it for a better price as regular manuka. I havn't looked at whats for offer this year but earleir on medical was looking competitive, Also we are installing a new extraction plant and belive we can produce even cleaner honey ( we will have to see) so it would be good to be get some premiums to help pay for extra money invested.

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So really its as lovehoney has said

Um Frazz, not really sure what you mean buy that what part that love honey said.

 

We would be lucky if 75% of our manuka makes medical grade, medical firstly has to be over 9.5 umf (sweedish rounding) with our buyer, the rest of our manuka is standard table stuff, I got to get to work but want to talk more on this.

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So really its as lovehoney has said

 

Don't go misrepresenting what I have said. I object to having quotes of mine represented out of context.

 

I made a specific statement about Manufacturing reality, and pointed out that NPA was still the driving facet of value in this manufacturing process.

 

There are numerous reasons for the value of Manuka honey. Its health benefits are one facet.

 

Implicit to this is the fact that it is understood to be a unique New Zealand product. SCARCE, rare, and trustworthy.

 

When most of the honey on shelves around the world is an untrafiltered, pasteurised blend of flat honeys from multiple countries, often containing antibiotics below legal limits and residues of High Fructose Corn Syrup, its fairly simple that people go overboard for Manuka.

 

The Manuka standard is to protect the value of Manuka honey as an export product, and ensure its long term contribution of value to the New Zealand economy.

 

You, as a producer of table grade, are perfectly entitled to buy in active manuka, blend it with your non active stock, and sell it the whole batch as a lower grade of active manuka.

 

Think like a businessman frazz. Your 'enemies' are.

 

Its Sun Tzu.

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When you say ultra filtered,wbat do you mean isnt a centrifuge ulta filtering the honey,orusing a hummer.

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Don't go misrepresenting what I have said. I object to having quotes of mine represented out of context.

 

Im sorry but can you please point out to me what exactly i said that has misrepresented what you said?

 

Talking of honey adulteration you forgot to mention c4 sugars that are constantly being found in NPA manuka honey and theres alot of talk out there of DHA being added to honey and im suspicious enough to believe that were theres smoke theres fire.

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theres alot of talk out there of DHA being added to honey and im suspicious enough ...

check this out then @@frazzledfozzle

Trade Me - Listings from pinwang

nectar nectar unrelated honey honey honey dha!!!

different dha but it had me going for a while

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It's too overstated to say foreign honeys are that bad and NZ honeys are trustworthy. Foreign honeys are not all as bad as what was described. Many are as high quality as we perceive NZ honeys to be. Also, the issue with antibiotics is much, much less than it was in 2002.

 

So, if @@Love Honey had said "some" instead of "most of the honey on shelves around the world" then I would agree.

 

Re. NZ honeys, hasn't Manuka been shown to have very high sugar levels, as far as foreigners are concerned that means NZ honey is adulterated. While there may be something unique in Manuka contributing to it, we all know that most NZ beeks remove most of the honey and feed plenty of sugar, and it would be naive to think that some of that sugar doesn't end up in the honey.

Then there was the Amatraz issue last year. :crap:

And then there are NZ beeks & packers who blend Rewarewa, Kanuka, and darker honeys into Manuka and sell it as "Manuka". To the rest of the world, that is called Food Fraud. Saying 'but that is what we've always done' only makes it worse in their eyes and isn't defendable.:thumbdown:

And there are probably other issues I haven't listed e.g. @@frazzledfozzle speaks of added DHA.

 

NZ & foreigners involved in the industry, we're all human, with a range of ethics, education and ability and therefore product quality. NZ producers aren't all perfect and foreign producers aren't all bad. What we need is standards with enforcement to ensure consistently high quality and compliant product. @@Love Honey wrote well when he(?) said: The Manuka standard is to protect the value of Manuka honey as an export product, and ensure its long term contribution of value to the New Zealand economy. I look forward to when a standard is set (as long as it is set how I want it to be - just kidding!););):rolleyes::rolleyes::lol:lol

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Wow 44 bucks for 500 of honey with a bit of fruit juice added,um

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Good on him if he can get it, and it's all above board.

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Indeed. Its an expensive item. We were selling them at 24.95, to match prices in Supermarkets until we got down to the last dozen jars. The 2010 vintage is now scarce.

 

We have released a new 2012 vintage of 10+ from Wellington's South Coast at the 24.95 price point.

 

The ad says it all. Single Origin. Monofloral. Delicious. 12.8+ NPA Active Manuka tested by ISO Certified Hill Labs.

 

It even states the following: "It should be noted that there are other people offering active honey. There is a difference between Total Activity; and Unique Manuka Non Peroxide Activity. Please make sure you do your research, so you understand what you pay for. "

 

People pay 4.50 for a cup of single origin Coffee, and $450 a good bottle of Pinot Noir from Central Otago.

 

Rob BP's comment on the blending and batching is very poignant. We avoid blending in all forms. We don't even use a starter from a previous season for creaming. This ensures that our vintages are accurate. It's what we believe in.

 

Our customers support us in this belief. So do our suppliers.

 

I actually got stung once, by a guy selling 25+, and talking alot about UMF. Only after a bit of pressure did he come up with the tests, that showed Total Activity levels, of 23.8. His loss however, as I had lined up a buyer for a container load of his 25+ UMF, who I am still friends with today.

 

On the 'most/some' I agree that 'some' is a better choice there. If I could edit, I would.

 

A review of the honeygate laundering issue in the States, where chinese honey tainted with Chloramphenicol was diluted, relabelled and shipped into the US for blending, is good background for anyone interested. Really weird economics happening there.

 

Also, for reference.

 

Tests Show Most Store Honey Isn't Honey | Food Safety News

 

Many of the price oriented consumers globally are getting a product that is far less than what we expect in New Zealand. We are lucky to have it as we do in NZ. Manuka is recognised for its good reputation. The standard should facilitate us keeping it that way.

 

Perhaps another way to control the market would be to ban bulk export, requiring only export of Packed Retail product in a ready for retail format. It would bring jobs home, and would all but eliminate the issues created by foreign packers. Could possibly give rise to WTO suit though.

 

Most of the issues seem to come about because of foreign companies, rather than New Zealand oriented ones. The recent UK recall was caused by a UK packer, who allegedly purchased NZ Manuka from China...

 

There was a shipment seized by NZFSA, in Timaru, for not being the right UMF.

 

$1m honey export order seized | Stuff.co.nz

 

 

With regards to Ultrafiltration:

 

http://www.multi-sweet.com/upload/honey%20filter%20machine.JPG

 

This bad boy. It is used to filter all residues and pollens out of the honey. Sucks it right out of there, so that the honey is untraceable, via standard pollen analysis or Trace Element analysis.

 

C4 Sugar issues are again a slightly different issue. When it was reviewed in depth, the GNS research by Karyne Rogers actually identified that the natural, raw state of our honey was what was causing the false positives.

 

It was not sugar in the honey that was the problem. It was the TEST. Manuka had a disproportionate representation of pollen, vs honey, and so caused the isotope ratio to 'drift'. When the pollen was filtered, the honey passed the test fine.

 

Eliminating false positive C4 sug... [Rapid Commun Mass Spectrom. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

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Links on Honeygate. This is what people are willing to do, internationally, in order to squeeze out an extra million dollars.

 

 

U.S. charges five in 'Honeygate' anti-dumping probe| Reuters

 

'Honeygate' uncovered in US sting - Telegraph

 

How Germany’s ALW Got Busted for the Largest Food Fraud in U.S. History - Businessweek

 

5 lessons from the Honeygate scandal | Farm Press Blog <--- This ones funny.

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And to respond to frazz, about misrepresentation.

 

My statement about the possible use of blending was a response to John, which suggested a possible reason for the producers dumping hives adjacent to his non active sites.

 

There it is in a nut shell. The Manuka standard is not to protect the high NPA medical grade honey its entirely to protect the table grade NPA

 

So really its as lovehoney has said

 

This is where I feel there is a logical breakdown.

 

My statement was about economics, not standards. The standard is also about economics.

 

Anyhow, I feel I have said enough on this issue for quite some time. Should be some fat to chew for a while.

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@@Love Honey honey. I may be stupid but you will need to break it down for me.

 

Where is the misrepresntation?

 

blending of honey ie using high NPA honey suitable for medical use to blend with low or non NPA honey to produce 10x the amount of table UMF.

Tony said he got better or as good prices for his table grade as he did for medical so wasnt selling medical.

If the market and demand isnt there for medical then it must be the table grade everyone is chasing.

Hence its table grade NPA that the fight is over because thats where the money is.

 

You say

please do your research so you know what you pay for

 

What is it exactly about NPA 12.8+ For $44.96 per 250grm are getting that they cant get from your monofloral thyme @ 9.98 125grm

 

Please dont tell me its good for you internally, i havent read any recent research that says thsts conclusive and anyway not that many people can have ulcers!

 

If we are going to talk about misrepresentation then in my opinion the whole NPA for internal use is shonky and we all know it. Medical grade NPA is proven as is the benefits of the peroxide activity of honey which is often overlooked. But its proven on wounds not eaten on your toadt in the morning as a health tonic.

 

The whole table grade Manuka story is a crock and anyone eho is in the industry knows it.

 

Of course this is only my opinion and you can sell your honey for as much as you like and you can also put whatever you want on your label.

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When you say ultra filtered,wbat do you mean isnt a centrifuge ulta filtering the honey,orusing a hummer.

no. a centrifuge or hummer is just a spin float. it just floats wax off. its just quicker than letting gravity do it.

 

ultra filtration is pumping very hot honey at high pressure through a very fine filter (6 microns?).

the other method, while not as brutal, is common in the usa is to add a clay (like they do with wine). that attracts and grabs the proteins and pollens in the honey. which then filters out using the normal coarse filters.

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@@Love Honey .

C4 Sugar issues are again a slightly different issue. When it was reviewed in depth, the GNS research by Karyne Rogers actually identified that the natural, raw state of our honey was what was causing the false positives.

 

It was not sugar in the honey that was the problem. It was the TEST. Manuka had a disproportionate representation of pollen, vs honey, and so caused the isotope ratio to 'drift'. When the pollen was filtered, the honey passed the test fine.

 

Two points here. NPA producers are very vocal in telling us that Manuka dosnt produce much pollen and thats why theres low pollen in an NPA pollen analysis. And here it says it has too much.

 

Second point if you read Karyne Rogers report it says that while some NPA honey has been able to pass the new c4 sugar test there is still NPA honey being produced with a c4 sugar problem.

 

To prevent rejection of honey, Dr Rogers recommends that any producer who sugar feeds their bees should submit their honey for isotope testing. She adds “blending a batch of honey collected too early from C4 sugar fed bees can contaminate an entire shipment”. To avoid costly mistakes, producers should test each batch to eliminate any questionable batches from the main harvest. Testing will also help producers to understand withholding periods of sugar before collection occurs to minimise the risk of a failed test. Other solutions to this problem could include the removal of brood boxes from the collection boxes or wintering bees using natural products such as honey.

 

I wonder if the rumours are true about DHA being mixed with sugar syrup and feeding it to hives in the honey flow?

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blending of honey ie using high NPA honey suitable for medical use to blend with low or non NPA honey to produce 10x the amount of table UMF.

Tony said he got better or as good prices for his table grade as he did for medical so wasnt selling medical.

If the market and demand isnt there for medical then it must be the table grade everyone is chasing.

Hence its table grade NPA that the fight is over because thats where the money is.

 

 

 

I feel with those additional words frazz, its now accurate. Thanks for making it a bit clearer.

 

I definitely agree that the majority of the value of the Manuka industry comes from the lower end of the market.

 

What is it exactly about NPA 12.8+ For $44.96 per 250grm are getting that they cant get from your monofloral thyme @ 9.98 125grm?

 

Manuka Honey.

 

A different flavor. A different vintage. Rarity.

 

What do we get from it? Market intelligence.

 

In all honesty, we haven't sold one of those since the price was increased. It would appear that there is an upper limit on the Manuka price. 24.95 is a fair price. 44.95 is a price at which it doesn't sell.

 

You have highlighted to me that we should add a few more products to our trademe listings, that are more accessible.

 

Thanks for putting the bee in my bonnet!

 

 

Re Internal use.

 

I would like to know more about the Traditional Chinese Medicine perspective on Manuka Honey. Its a major market, and use as a tonic is a major driver.

 

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@@Love Honey it would be really great if you could have more varieties forsale online

 

I never thought about buying honey it seemed crazy to me when we can produce all the honey we could ever eat.

 

That was until i heard about the honeys available online produced by forum members they sound fantastic.

 

So now i have some clover, tawari and chestnut On order from <Content removed>.co.nz and some lime honey from Tudor @ Brightwaterbees.co.nz

 

I look at it as a treat and as I hate wine what better alternative to delight the palate than some beautiful honeys produced in gods own :)

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I look at it as a treat and as I hate wine what better alternative to delight the palate than some beautiful honeys produced in gods own :)

 

A slightly cooler than room temperature Stoke Dark, that's what !

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blending of honey ie using high NPA honey suitable for medical use to blend with low or non NPA honey to produce 10x the amount of table UMF.

Tony said he got better or as good prices for his table grade as he did for medical so wasnt selling medical.

If the market and demand isnt there for medical then it must be the table grade everyone is chasing.

Hence its table grade NPA that the fight is over because thats where the money is.

 

Frazz i suspect the market is there for medical, but i think medical is going though the same problem as anyone trying to purchase manuka at the moment, its competitive so even the medical must have limits they prepeard to buy at, which is a bit of a worry not so much for me cause im still getting paid for my honey, but this is a good market for NZ honey and in my opinion if they can get results with manuka for healing wounds rather than antibiotics etc then not only its only gonna help the manuka story but nz honey in general.

 

I think your definatly right in saying that table grade npa is where its at, I mean how many people can really afford pay $44 for 250g, very small market, I'm no marketer but to me its a bit of a no brainer, not only that i'm distgusted by that price, if i as a beek got that $44 for that 12.8 NPA per kg not 250g (id be very happy) that price equates to nearly $180/kg ok you got packing etc... but that is exactly the same cost as packing clover, so to me its purly greed and if you look at it like that the beek should be demanding more for there honey, I got no problem with the middle man doing there job at the end of the day they marketing it and fetching the good price which we are seeing, and they got a buiness to run and want to make profitable, but in this picture the scales are leaning far to one side.

 

Another good point I've read here and which was bought up and over looked at that manuka meeting not exporting honey in bulk out of nz, lets demand it leaves here packed local jobs, quality control the list goes on, but with that no honey imports, imagine the position we could be in if we did that.

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In this picture the scales are leaning far to one side.

 

 

Hi Tony

 

FYI, we have not sold a single jar at the 44.95 price point. There are only 8 jars left.

 

We sold plenty at 24.95.

 

We sold most of our stock at 14.95 a jar, so that people could enjoy it.

 

You are looking at a small part of a much bigger picture.

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I understand, so if you want people to enjoy it why on earth bother putting that price on it. We pack a little bit for mostly locals and we sell it for what we get bulk plus cost of jar, we only sell 1 &2 kg jars the people that buy it like manuka but are not prepared to pay store prices.

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I understand, so if you want people to enjoy it why on earth bother putting that price on it. We pack a little bit for mostly locals and we sell it for what we get bulk plus cost of jar, we only sell 1 &2 kg jars the people that buy it like manuka but are not prepared to pay store prices.

i also sell honey to the locals at bulk +jar price. it's important PR work. and it does piss me off if the local shop thinks he has to put more than double on it cos he can. ruins my PR plans as a local beekeeper.

but as far as the honey market goes, i think everyone who drives up the price is welcome to.

i see the logic in comparing honey to wine or coffee and just because a lot of honey is sold under it's potential value doesn't mean it has to stay this way. people that want manuka honey want a luxury item and it's worth what you can charge for it. it gets increasingly harder to produce honey, so let's not knock those who are working up it's value

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