Sending honey to other countries

[Bighands 1,065]

I had an enquiry from a customer who bought pollen from me at the indoor market in Hokitika. She wants 1 kg to be sent to her in the usa. I packed the pollen ready to post to her only to find that MPI have stepped in and any bee products up to 2 kg need all their bs filled in.MPI have asked that all people sending bee products need an exporter ID,exporter address, and either product ID or batch number, and the parcel need to go to an individual not a company. The parcel cannot weigh any more than 2kg.

    Today I intend to email MPI asking why we ( beekeepers)were not consulted and the reasoning behind this regulation.We are not a police state but are becoming one, where is the democracy. I also intend to send a letter the our minister Damien O'connor.

[Grant 4,298]

looks like it all changed on the 10th September

https://www.mpi.govt.nz/travel-and-recreation/sending-food-or-animal-products-overseas-for-personal-use-or-as-a-gift/sending-honey-overseas/

 

[ChrisM 1,278]

how much does it cost? I could not seem to fnd out without making the full application first.

 

[Bighands 1,065]

1 hour ago, ChrisM said:

how much does it cost? I could not seem to fnd out without making the full application first.

 

I checked up and the cost is $155.25 gst inc.

[Grant 4,298]

So here's a business idea. Become a registered service for people wanting to send the odd jar and hit up the post office to get added as a recommended provider

[Bighands 1,065]

Hey I am retired, not tired, but a great idea.i have sent a letter off to MPI sasking their reasoning and will send one to Damien O'connor, my mp and in charge of MPI

[ChrisM 1,278]

 

 

1 hour ago, Grant said:

So here's a business idea. Become a registered service for people wanting to send the odd jar and hit up the post office to get added as a recommended provider

 

Well, if the honey was extracted and packed in an NP1 facility for domestic consumption, I am not sure this can this be sent (under 2kg) as a gift maybe as well the registered exporter (including associated fee) needs also to be RMP audited and only sending RMP honey overseas? The business case for the latter doesn't exist. If non-RMP honey can be exported person to person as a gift where it is under 2kg then a business case might exist.

Thirdly, a really good business case might also exist for individuals overseas to order a particular honey under 2kg and then have this delivered to them. Thus allowing them to sample various honey they can't obtain locally and which they can guarantee really did come from NZ.

Does anyone have the time to explain the rules on all this, if they know?

[Bighands 1,065]

I have asked MPI how they are going to police it.The way it is worded is open to corruption.Another way to shut down the small producer and hurt our reputation as a fair  and open country.Now we are just another police state

[Maggie James 906]

5 hours ago, Grant said:

So here's a business idea. Become a registered service for people wanting to send the odd jar and hit up the post office to get added as a recommended provider

Bighands, nor any producer under an RMP, should have to think about the odd jar in the post.   We would all go broke if it comes down to this mentality.  

4 hours ago, Bighands said:

I have asked MPI how they are going to police it.The way it is worded is open to corruption.Another way to shut down the small producer and hurt our reputation as a fair  and open country.Now we are just another police state

My interpretation of this, if Bighands sells a drum of honey (300-330 kg)  at his farmers' market, the purchaser can export this.  Yet, if Bighands wants to mail more than 2 kg overseas, he is in breach of NZPost & MPI.  

 

This is insane!  

 

This is just another example of bureracracy gone mad hindering the sole operator!  

 

Are we destined for an industry run by bureracracts (however your spell it) corporates and those that consider they are big players?

 

Big players in this industry, in my experience are the ones that carry a phenomenal amount of debt.  They are highly articulate, and make life a misery for the rest 

[Bighands 1,065]

This is only the start, wait until we have another incursion such as small hive beetle of EFB then see what costs are passed onto beekeepers with no say.

[tristan 4,363]

1 hour ago, Maggie James said:

My interpretation of this, if Bighands sells a drum of honey (300-330 kg)  at his farmers' market, the purchaser can export this.

only if they are registered with MPI and only to markets that do not require any food standards.

any market that requires standards then everyone in the supply chain needs to be registered.

this has been the case for a number of years now.

 

there has been cases where entire shipments have been stopped because ONE beeks wasn't mpi registered.

 

i suspect its all about reducing the black and grey markets. ie stolen honey, illegal hobbyists sales, tourists buying boxes of honey to resale back home etc, people sending honey home where its diluted and resold.

[Bighands 1,065]

The person buying my honey can take it back to his country in his baggage and get his family and friends to do the same and their is nothing the government can do. It is all being exported so I see double standards here

[tristan 4,363]

22 hours ago, Bighands said:

The person buying my honey can take it back to his country in his baggage and get his family and friends to do the same and their is nothing the government can do. It is all being exported so I see double standards here

yes, however when they start doing it on a larger scale and they are no longer a consumer but an exporter and should abide by all the rules the rest of us have to.

this is where grey exports comes into it. they buy from many small players as "tourists" so they can circumvent import/export laws and land a cheaper product, untested product or an illegal product.

so honey from a hobbyist whose bees picked up some banned chemical the neighbour was spaying, winds up on the shelf in japan, europe etc, gets tested and as there is no way to trace where it came from all nz honey gets banned.

 

i understand another nz horticulture product had a very similar thing happen after spray residue was found.

a lot of other countries have a big interest in seeing our products removed from the shelves.

[olbe 238]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I believe MPI would love to see the demise of all the mum and dad operators out there , the large corporates just roll over for a belly rub when new regulations are imposed upon us , but the smaller operators tend to be a bit like aunties chicahuahua , we snap and nip at MPI's heels and just like us with aunties chicahuahua , they get to the stage where they just want to kick that yapping dog outta there

[ChrisM 1,278]

15 hours ago, tristan said:

yes, however when they start doing it on a larger scale and they are no longer a consumer but an exporter and should abide by all the rules the rest of us have to.

this is where grey exports comes into it. they buy from many small players as "tourists" so they can circumvent import/export laws and land a cheaper product, untested product or an illegal product.

so honey from a hobbyist whose bees picked up some banned chemical the neighbour was spaying, winds up on the shelf in japan, europe etc, gets tested and as there is no way to trace where it came from all nz honey gets banned.

 

i understand another nz horticulture product had a very similar thing happen after spray residue was found.

a lot of other countries have a big interest in seeing our products removed from the shelves.

sorry I disagree. Any honey sold in the domestic market has to meet or exceed the food act 2014 under NP1. So it is not correct to say it is circumvent laws, untested or illegal. If honey is being sold illegally by a hobbyist (which I doubt) this move by MPI will not affect that and I don't for a second believe that is a widespread thing either.

 

The limit of up to 2kg would effectively permit one-off gifts that is 99% legitimate. The region from 0 to 2kg can hardly be described as a "larger scale". But yes sure over 2kg there needs to be a level playing field for what are commercial transactions.

 

The costs of sending 1000kg of honey in separate 2kg parcels to private addresses is mind blowing. It would be far cheaper to send through normal exporter channels as freight. So any abuse of the postal system would in fact be more expensive IMO. So there is no financial benefit in circumventing the rules as you describe, certainly not cheaper. To prove this as a fact, I went to the NZ Post rate finder to send a 10cm x 10cm x 30cm 2kg parcel to China. The cost of this was $55.79 on their website. I believe the cost of the postage makes it uneconomic to run a business that way. I also think it would be pretty easy to locate anybody who sent volumes of honey by simply asking for a free NZ Customs exporter code. So in other words without inventing a new fee or a new database.

 

I can't see how sending a 1kg pot of honey can end up on a shelf in a shop, simply isn't large scale. Basically it is annoying the hell of out of a lot of people for no good reason, just petty ideology and lazy administrative convenience.

 

Anyway, we are all entitled to a different view..

[Bighands 1,065]

I have written to the Minister.It will be interesting to see his reply being an election year.

[yesbut 6,233]

1 hour ago, Bighands said:

I have written to the Minister.It will be interesting to see his reply being an election year.

You will get a reply ultimately from the whoever the new minister is. All pollies have gone home, and severed links with welly.

[Bighands 1,065]

Well I got a reply from his secretary

[Grant 4,298]

16 minutes ago, Bighands said:

Well I got a reply from his secretary

my out of office would reply if you emailed me too 

we sort of need some substance from the "I emailed the minister" posts

[tristan 4,363]

10 hours ago, ChrisM said:

sorry I disagree. Any honey sold in the domestic market has to meet or exceed the food act 2014 under NP1. So it is not correct to say it is circumvent laws, untested or illegal. If honey is being sold illegally by a hobbyist (which I doubt) this move by MPI will not affect that and I don't for a second believe that is a widespread thing either.

i didn't say hobbyist where doing anything wrong. they can sell domestic honey domestically and thats fine.

the problem is other people buy from them and then export it. ie they are exporting products that are meant to be sold domestically. 

this is extremely widespread and happens every week all over nz (well untill covid that is). 

hence the name grey exports. i could just about guarantee that any hobby beek who has sold honey at a major market has had their honey end up overseas and resold.  

this is presumable what the measures are in place to combat.

[Kiwi Bee 589]

Let say tomorrow I buy 5x1kg of Manuka honey from the local Countdown made by Comvita. Since they are a big, legitimate company, why can't I send the honey overseas? Or am I missing something?

 

It will be good if all this mess up will be sorted in a normal way.

I will welcome the idea to have a smart code for each type of packed product we would like to sell(domestically or overseas). And linked to the seller.

Have a small annual fee for that like $100/year to ensure people are not getting reluctant because of the high fee.

Manuka honey(any grade) should not leave NZ in larger packaging than 1kg. This will ensure traceability and it will become very expensive for others overseas to adulterate it.

[ChrisM 1,278]

10 hours ago, tristan said:

i didn't say hobbyist where doing anything wrong. they can sell domestic honey domestically and thats fine.

the problem is other people buy from them and then export it. ie they are exporting products that are meant to be sold domestically. 

this is extremely widespread and happens every week all over nz (well untill covid that is). 

hence the name grey exports. i could just about guarantee that any hobby beek who has sold honey at a major market has had their honey end up overseas and resold.  

this is presumable what the measures are in place to combat.

 

Well standby for a bit of a rant.

 

I think there are around 6000 hobbyists, practically nobody has NP1 because of the cost (separate topic about the Food Act 2014 causing an own goal). If 6000 hobbyists did post out 2kg of their very small harvest, this would be 12 tonnes of honey in a market that is measured in thousands of tonnes in the MPI Apiculture report. So, in other words well beyond any possible likelyhood and also invisibly small in that unlikely event. Hobbyists = not plausible. If you sell honey at a market with NP1, you are in business; not hobby.

 

In terms of the grey exports, this is the diagou trade and I personally believe that 2/3 of all domestic honey sales did used to go out of NZ in tourist suitcases. There is a massive disconnect between honey sold domestically per capita and that of other countries. So, I believe that 67% of the domestic market honey that is already produced legitimately by RMP beekeepers was being exported in the suitcases of cruise liner and airliner tourists. So, the next couple apiculture reports will be fascinating.

 

But as already asked why can't an RMP pot of honey be posted as a gift?

 

I don't know a single commercial beekeeper who is NP1, they are all RMP. Of those who are NP1 in my estimation it represents about 5% of hobby beekeepers at the most who have turned semi-commercial. Maybe we could say that at any given time 5% of hobbyists have their sights on a semi-commercial future. I think it is simply is not possible for the NP1 producers to fill the Daigou trade volume so even if 100% of NP1 production was exported it would not amount to anything measurable. NZ Post would buckle under the weight of the Daigou trade, but it doesn't instead it goes out via suitcases not post. So NZ Post was not a problem that needed to be solved.

 

Obviously if the RMP beekeepers are feeding the Daigou trade through supermarkets, to tourists and seasonal workers, the logical way to solve this is to make it illegal for RMP beekeepers to sell honey at a supermarket. hehehe. This would also dovetail with the MPI policy of kicking a man when he is already down (further examples being self important responses to Myrtle Rust and M.Bovis). Shutting down NZ Post doesn't change a thing it just really annoys people. It would be good if MPI could transparently prove their case..

 

In the past the IRD got so far up their own drain pipe, that there was an uproar and the parliamentarians stepped in to get the IRD to soften their stance and be fair to the people of NZ; probably election related, I don't recall. I think that as a simple extension of power, corruption, absolute power, etc that these government departments are big and talking amongst themselves they are blind to their own ineptitude. The Social Welfare baby snatchers might become another example. If it gets bad enough eventually there will be an IRD moment but MPI won't see it coming. It comes from the top and I think O'Connor has all the airs and graces but in reality is a waste of space without a single thought of his own, the department does all his thinking for him. So, MPI is uncontrolled and quite safe to run amok, for the moment. 

 

In regards to the other thread about NZ becoming a police state, I don't think we are, far from it. We have to be thankful that our idiots have no malice. But human nature does seem to lead toward these departments getting the wobbles of grandeur. Of course NZ Railways were disbanded completely such was the way they upset Richard Prebble and others, maybe if the parliamentarians keep their eye on the ball a bit more these departments would not ever get so far out of whack that it becomes necessary. Because I think we would be better off now with a nationalised rail system being run well.

 

All of us would prefer to be a in a position to want to give MPI all our support.

[tristan 4,363]

On 25/09/2020 at 9:10 AM, ChrisM said:

I think there are around 6000 hobbyists,

pretty sure its a whole lot more. i will have to check some other day.

only skim reading it so excuse any errors.

 

the problem is not the amount sold. the problem is if its fails testing overseas and has no traceability the industry is in the crap. govts overseas will simply ban all nz honey. other parties would be pushing for tariffs, added inspections etc, anything to make nz honey get priced off the market. 

 typical govt response to that is that all beeks would have to be under the rmp scheme at great cost to hobbyists which know doubt you will squeal at.

 

also with commercial its not just RMP, you also require MPI registration and comply with overseas countries requirements.

not all commercial guys have MPI. even if honey is processed with RMP it can't be exported without MPI reg.

for EU it also has to go through EU processing plant.

this has tripped up a few exporters and why many commercial extraction will not touch anyone who doesn't hold MPI reg.

 

if govt made hobbyists go through the same export standards as commercial, you will find some hobbyist would not legally be able to sell honey ever.