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Yesbut struggling with new system...

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On 2/09/2020 at 2:29 PM, Alastair said:

I did hear gossip that was most likely true, that some beekeepers wouldn't register sites that were in locations that were unlikely to ever be discovered.

 

The chopper thing, which was a few years ago now, was very successful at finding a good number of unregistered sites. But was also useful for letting others know, who had sites where they thought they would never be found, that they could be found. Helicopter surveillance could be repeated at any time. Last time around some people got warnings, but where concealment appeared intentional especially of multiple sites, more severe penalties were handed out.

 

We are given 30 days to register a new site but the hope is they will be registered immediately. So the helicopter surveillance was done, then there was a waiting period to see if those beekeepers found to have unregistered sites would register within the 30 days, before any enforcement action was taken.

 

 

 

When the helicopter search was done, the fees at that time were per apiary and so this was also a matter of income, not a matter of AFB tracing nor an AFB outbreak and I am quite sure did not result in a reduction of AFB in the Taranaki map of AFB for the following year.

 

Now that the fees are per hive, I suppose the same rat-bags will just under-report their hive numbers... The next move in such a game is to levy the fee per kg of honey in harvest dec's and/or through rmp audits. That should/would not affect any honest beekeeper if the rate was reasonable, but for rat-bags it would make it impossible to avoid (?). A further gain is that the reporting and tracing of apiaries and hives would in itself have no financial impact and finally beekeepers could bring themselves to be a bit more generous with the truth if it didn't change their costs.

 

For hobbyist beekeepers not making harvest dec's nor RMP then the per hive cost seems a pretty fair way to go. This can be the same rate based on national average hive production kg from previous year's report. 

 

The current hive cost is $1.35+gst. The yield per hive in the MPI apiculture report is 25.1kg.

So hypothetically this amounts to 5.4cents per kg which would be levied for honey going into the RMP chicane. So on average this is what all beekeepers are already paying, no change. 

 

Just thinking aloud a bit more.... it is a shame there isn't really any sensible way of charging high AFB fees in the high AFB areas and lower AFB fees in the low AFB areas. While the notion of insurance is that everyone pays to help cover an unexpected horrible event, the persistent AFB issues in some areas of the country don't seem to be unexpected and more like a case for user-pays..

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We’ve only had one year of fees per hive and they are already proposing a substantial price increase ! I wish those with their hands out wanting beekeepers money just took a hike.

This push to increase levies will not stop, I have seen empire builders before, they never wind up serving the best interests the people they were intended too

11 hours ago, ChrisM said:

Moments after typing that the Agency has proposed $1.70/hive for next year and are asking for our feedback. So, this is now a subject actually under discussion!


We’ve only had one year of fees per hive and they are already proposing a substantial price increase !

I wish those with their hands out wanting beekeepers money just took a hike.

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7 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:


We’ve only had one year of fees per hive and they are already proposing a substantial price increase !

I wish those with their hands out wanting beekeepers money just took a hike.

Wasn't a price increase planned from the onset? 

 

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Ah look ...... like old mate @BRS was always keen to point out ...... it's all tax deductible ..... so If Grant R. is keen to put the top tax rate up to 39% ..... we gonna need quite a lot more taxable deductions ..... right ?

 

 

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7 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:


We’ve only had one year of fees per hive and they are already proposing a substantial price increase !

I wish those with their hands out wanting beekeepers money just took a hike.

That is an understandable piece of feedback that you can send back via their survey link in the email they sent to everyone. But to be fair they have to set a rate every year, regardless of whether it is per hive or per hectare some rate has to be set and this also changed when it was on the apiary basis.

 

On the otherhand the extra work they are offering to do is worth something and if we want them to ramp up their work or not, that is the question they're asking us to respond to. They've asked for feedback and provided a form for that.

 

Viewed as say 7c/kg for extracted honey, could that be easier to manage in years with a poor harvest or a big harvest it might be a better match to the cashflow in the industry. But it would not make any difference in the long term.

2 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Wasn't a price increase planned from the onset? 

Yes, they said that they wanted to charge more and DO more with it. Overall, I think the positive changes in the agency and the charging regime mean that I would vote yes in favour of it as a hobbiest. But I understand the difficulty to balance the books for a commercial.

 

It is very hard to judge if the extra combined money of the whole industry can be used to eliminate the localised hot spots to make a real dent in AFB for the longer term. Insufficient information makes it a guess. What would Mark Goodwin and/or other academics say, I wonder..

 

3 minutes ago, jamesc said:

it's all tax deductible ..... so If Grant R. is keen to put the top tax rate up to 39% .....

If you are earning over $180k profit (after expenses) then you're probably not about to go belly up.

 

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14 hours ago, DavyK said:

This push to increase levies will not stop, I have seen empire builders before, they never wind up serving the best interests the people they were intended too

Remember, this has always been *our* 'empire' - the PMP was created by and for NZ beekeepers.  The objectives and the operational plan are quite clear as to what the levies will be spent on.  And if *we* are successful, our little 'empire' will go away.  Eliminating AFB from NZ is possible, preferable and profitable for the beekeeping industry overall...

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15 hours ago, DavyK said:

This push to increase levies will not stop, I have seen empire builders before, they never wind up serving the best interests the people they were intended too

 

I think the fees have always been too low to be able to do the job effectively. 

 

I would challenge any reader, to do the job the way it should be done, with the current budget.

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based on 7c/kg of honey (effectively) it seems extremely cheap. But we should all give our feedback on their form rather than applauding or moaning about it on the forum. I don't know anything about the harvest dec, extraction, RMP process, but seems like you have to be registered with MPI and all the honey has to be closely tracked and accounted for. So making this fee a commodity based rather than hive based seems good if it will mean that true hive numbers and apiaries are disclosed with more compliance. 

 

For someone with 350 hives producing 25.1kg per hive that is near 9t of honey, call it 29 drums?

The cost increase proposed is 35c per hive, that is $122.50 extra. Doesn't seem a massive increase.

 

Is there a practical reason why invoicing per kg of honey would be a bad idea?

I like it because mini-mating nucs and so on are kind of annoying for $1.70 each when only run for part of the year. Beekeepers not in the RMP scheme (such as me) would carry on paying per hive. The costs of RMP are so extortionately high, nobody is going to join in RMP nor leave RMP because of 7c per kg.

 

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Thing is it’s a cost increase and it’s on top of a myriad of other cost increases most of them compliance etc. 

I look around me and see everything we need to buy or fees we need to pay increasing in cost while the price we receive for our products is reducing, plummeting Even.

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1 minute ago, frazzledfozzle said:

Thing is it’s a cost increase and it’s on top of a myriad of other cost increases most of them compliance etc. 

I look around me and see everything we need to buy or fees we need to pay increasing in cost while the price we receive for our products is reducing, plummeting Even.

If the totally ridiculous 6 month audits for RMP were ditched, I suspect that AFB costs could be literally doubled and all commercial beekeepers would still be better off. 

So the AFB costs are relatively minor when the big problem the industry needs to focus on is MPI/RMP?

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I would not be happy about a per kilogram fee as my average is a lot higher than the pathetic New Zealand average.

This also means there are a lot of beekeepers out there who produce next to nothing and they are often the ones that cause the problem.

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12 minutes ago, john berry said:

I would not be happy about a per kilogram fee as my average is a lot higher than the pathetic New Zealand average.

This also means there are a lot of beekeepers out there who produce next to nothing and they are often the ones that cause the problem.

fair enough, though I don't see a great future in RMP registered beekeepers who didn't make a harvest. Paying all that money for RMP and not producing any honey either, they'll soon be gone.

 

Regardless, anyone who produces a lot of honey but has relatively few hives could be inspected to find out how many hives they really have? That might get the rat bags with less effort as I have to agree that another upheavel in charging regime would cause mayhem.

So, if harvest dec's and apiary register turn out to be literally impossible then the costs of being thrown out of RMP and unable to sell ANY honey will far surpass any PMP fines (?). 

 

Question: Do we know if anyone in MPI is pulling together all these different data threads to identify the unusual cases? They seem to have multiple registers, fees and systems that look pretty backward from the side line.

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1 hour ago, ChrisM said:

Do we know if anyone in MPI is pulling together all these different data threads to identify the unusual cases? They seem to have multiple registers, fees and systems that look pretty backward from the side line.

MPI are terrible at sharing information between their own departments, that is one of the biggest issues in dealing with them.

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23 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

MPI are terrible at sharing information between their own departments, that is one of the biggest issues in dealing with them.

I've heard this before, I think we all have and it does seem to be a standard feature of Customs, Social Welfare, Immigration, MPI etc etc.

Do you think this is because the original plan was they saved a lot of money combining ag, forestry, fisheries and food safety to create a single department (MPI) and in actual fact are so confused trying to be so many things to so many people they can't organise themselves nor focus on a single issue? Was it like this prior to MPI or has it got worse? Probably didn't save a cent either. Should I point out to you that MPI is one department not several?

 

Is this data issue and RMP 6 month audit issue something that NZ Beekeeping and ApiNZ could agree on and work together? From the outside, it seems to me that the Minister is a puppet of his own minions with no thoughts of his own and trying hard to look like he is in control. So, trying to educate the Minister or to appeal to him for common sense is a bit of a waste of time? Is it a case of needing to call the ombudsman and claim "foul"?

 

What would be the harm in letting the AFBNPMP get a hold of all that data? It is within the purpose of the PMP and to benefit of all beekeepers to use the data to rid us of AFB and non payers? Also, it is one less job that MPI has to do if a quasi MPI-ish body looks after it for them in a secure way. I know that would take time and money but I'd wager this could make an actual improvement in compliance that would boost the income of the PMP and that the offenders are possibly also the people hiding AFB more than most. Not to mention where all the stolen beehives ended up.

So it might unlock 80% of the useful leads for 20% of the current effort. It actually might end up lessening or holding the costs for the honest portion of the industry.

 

Meanwhile I'd certainly pay an extra 35c per hive for that new direction.

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