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This morning was a multi tasking day.. a prep day for Monday.. I shifted some new double Nuc boxes to a site ready for Monday’s job of transferring .. time to cut the cold core flute Nuc box from my o

I think if the AFB was found and reported by a beekeeper then they are far from a useless beekeeper and jn fact are very good beekeepers first for finding it and second for reporting it.   I

Hives are absolutely pumping, still 4 weeks left before my bayvarols due out, just wondering if I'm gonna need to super a few weeks early. Doubles are almost ready for splitting and queen rearing

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31 minutes ago, Dave Black said:

just doubling everything up

 

I don't believe anyone has been intentionally doubling up nor even proposing it. It has been mentioned / acknowledged it is too expensive to do so. It looks like you are reading the posts too quickly.

 

Please could you and others outline what Spring treatments you would recommend be put into a fully populated double FD brood box hive? Assuming that it is healthy and that it warrants treating.

Maybe multi-choice would help:

 

A. Four Bayvarol strips in each FD Box (8 strips).

B. Four Bayvarol in one box and two Apivar in the other box. (6 strips)

C. Two Bayvarol and one Apivar in each box. (6 strips)

D. Two Apivar in each box (4 strips).

E. Something else?

 

Other questions have been raised about 3/4 boxes and unpopulated boxes ready for expansion, but one thing at a time..

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Dave Black said:

While you guys get busy deciding how best to poison your hives just consider that honeybees have relatively few detoxifying enzymes for dealing with pests and pesticides. Besides the expense, just doubling everything up gives them more to do with less, and may leave an overwhelmed immune system open to other toxic nasties and diseases they may encounter.

is this entirely fair @Dave Black? A lot of us do not have the education to understand the nuances of these treatments but in the end all want the same thing- varoa free bees. When confusion is there about how resistance occurs, and the anecdotal discussions about what works / brood only / all boxes / alternating /  we look to the voices of those we respect for our guidance.

The inference I am taking from your comment is that we should use these strips singly- in the interest of bee health, rather than compromise the bees in the interest of varoa mortality. Is that what you were meaning?

 

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10 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

 

 

Maybe multi-choice would help:

 

A. Four Bayvarol strips in each FD Box (8 strips).

B. Four Bayvarol in one box and two Apivar in the other box. (6 strips)

C. Two Bayvarol and one Apivar in each box. (6 strips)

D. Two Apivar in each box (4 strips).

E. Something else?

 

Other questions have been raised about 3/4 boxes and unpopulated boxes ready for expansion, but one thing at a time..

 

 

I think the sooner you get back to designing yacht rigging the sooner the great cloud of wonderment will settle.

Edited by yesbut
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37 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

 

I don't believe anyone has been intentionally doubling up nor even proposing it. It has been mentioned / acknowledged it is too expensive to do so. It looks like you are reading the posts too quickly.

 

Please could you and others outline what Spring treatments you would recommend be put into a fully populated double FD brood box hive? Assuming that it is healthy and that it warrants treating.

Maybe multi-choice would help:

 

A. Four Bayvarol strips in each FD Box (8 strips).

B. Four Bayvarol in one box and two Apivar in the other box. (6 strips)

C. Two Bayvarol and one Apivar in each box. (6 strips)

D. Two Apivar in each box (4 strips).

E. Something else?

 

Other questions have been raised about 3/4 boxes and unpopulated boxes ready for expansion, but one thing at a time..

 

 

The dosage states 4 strips bayvarol/ brood or two Apivar/ brood. So, for a double brood box hive in theory you need to double those numbers.

The catch is that the two brood boxes may well only  have a combined total of only six frames of brood, if you are lucky at this time of year.

So, for us, running doubles we would put in four Bayvarol,or two Apivar. If the hives have only two or three frames of brood we'll halve the amount.

Come honey flow time the doubles will be made into singles ..... and in past years have shoved a shop cloth soaked in O/A  under the queen excluder.

This year .... probably 4 O/A staples through spring, refreshed as mite numbers dictate, but certainly sent into the flow with a shop cloth.

January/ Feb all treated with 2 strips of  Apivar.

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15 hours ago, Maru Hoani said:

I tried bayvarol,apistan and apiguard all at once when I first started out with 40 hives but next season I was back to PMS, it can only work if everyone's nuking the mites but most barely keep up with treatments, heaps of people get hives and wonder why they're dying, I take one look and yep deformed wings and mites running around! No wonder I get re invasion and have to put extra treatments in.


@Maru Hoaniare these beekeepers commercial or hobby and do they know about varroa and are choosing not to treat ?

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2 hours ago, Mummzie said:

is this entirely fair @Dave Black? A lot of us do not have the education to understand the nuances of these treatments but in the end all want the same thing- varoa free bees. When confusion is there about how resistance occurs, and the anecdotal discussions about what works / brood only / all boxes / alternating /  we look to the voices of those we respect for our guidance.

The inference I am taking from your comment is that we should use these strips singly- in the interest of bee health, rather than compromise the bees in the interest of varoa mortality. Is that what you were meaning?

Fair but facetious I suppose, sorry, but taken in a very literal sense that is what we do. In our case we poison a hive with enough of a chemical that will kill the very small things but leave bigger things pretty well unharmed, it is a calculated risk.


So we calculate. None of this is rocket-science. The maker works out how much is lethal to what, hopefully using good science, and builds in a safety margin accordingly. They design a release rate from the strip, and do some arithmetic to figure out, in most circumstances, how many strips to use. They guess that it is smart, given the life-cycle of the pest, to apply the necessary dose for a period of time that will last two life-cycles (24days+24days=48 days=6.9weeks) plus a little overlap. Then they write it all down on the outside of the packet for people to copy.


Now life is full of uncertainties. Your particular colony may not be ‘average’ (or ‘normal’), your temperature might not be ‘average’, and so on, and so the distribution of the active ingredient may not match what the maker thinks it will be. A little sensible adjustment of the calculation might be required, but the fundamental properties of the treatment will remain true. A discussion of the type of adjustment might be worthwhile sometimes. What is meant by average/normal? They don’t say, but we (ie. conventional Langstroth beekeepers) normally consider a nest of six to seven frames of 60% brood the standard.


If your circumstances or boxes or whatever are wildly different from what the manufacturer thinks they will be you will have to work out what the difference is, and how you will manage and monitor the treatment. Under-treatment and over-treatment are also risks to manage. You should not expect that the quantum of the adjustment you make will apply to anyone else.


Yes, I am suggesting that varroa treatments (all of them) compromise bee health, probably more than a suggestion actually. What I can’t do is say in a hypothetical instance whether or not it is worthwhile compromise. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t. Are we talking about doubling the treatment? We were. One treatment plus another treatment equals two treatments. Would I do it? I have done, Bayvarol and Apivar in some nucs., because I wasn’t confident of my resistance test result, and it wasn’t too expensive as nucs take less strips. Nowadays I have no reason to bother: then, I made a calculated compromise.
 

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I wonder about the relationship of brood , to the total bee population spreading the stuff around.  Eg which treatment is going to more effective, 2 strips to  4 frames of brood and 5000 bees or 2 strips to 2 frames of brood and 15,000 bees ?

 

(Don't bother pointing out 5,000 bees won't cover 4 frames....it's the principle I'm trying to illustrate)

Edited by yesbut
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1 hour ago, yesbut said:

I wonder about the relationship of brood , to the total bee population spreading the stuff around.  Eg which treatment is going to more effective, 2 strips to  4 frames of brood and 5000 bees or 2 strips to 2 frames of brood and 15,000 bees ?

 

Mites only reproduce and expand inside brood cells. If we can get a bit of chemical on the walls of all recently cleaned brood cells then mite population expansion is managed as new brood develops. In regards to population the more bees walking around the better, but foragers aren't cleaning brood cells ready for a fresh egg. Phoretic mites aren't really big problem if they aren't breeding. Seems logical to me to scale strips to brood frames. If there aren't many bees there might be an argument for even more strips (not less) to make sure what few bees there are, are walking it around. I think of it as treating empty brood cells, not treating adult bees.

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2 hours ago, yesbut said:

I wonder about the relationship of brood

Going back to the hypothetical 'normal' hive the assumption underlying that would be 30,000 bees in the box, and that you treat without the supers, that is, it's nearly all brood nest.

The absolute number I suggest is less important than the density of bees on the frames, and that might have some relationship to their activity. Bees manage the number they have covering brood as part of stablising their temperature and gas exchange. Mites remain in the brood nest mostly, with nurse bees or in cell, so that's what we are interested in treating. I do think think this is part of what can go wrong in cold weather, but generally I'd expect that the 'treatment area' is kept pretty constant by nest homeostasis and so you wouldn't get the extremes you're thinking about.

Edited by Dave Black
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4 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:


@Maru Hoaniare these beekeepers commercial or hobby and do they know about varroa and are choosing not to treat ?

Hobby people with 1-20 hives, there's always someone keen to get into bees but most dont realise the costs involved or how much work needs to go into it.

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I have a pin- has anyone seen my grenade.

I need to put some context around why I chose to treat the way I do.

Single FD box brood, double FD brood box, single FD brood box with excluder and a second box, single FD brood box with an excluder and a 3/4 second box, repeat all those options again with 3/4 box's and you have different results, then bring in long hives, top bar hives etc and you see there is no 1 hive in use. The one thing they all have is a laying queen that lays x amount of eggs(brood) and that is what we should be thinking about when deciding on what/how to treat.

 My spring treatment is used during Kiwifruit Pollination, I get paid per hive that meets a set standard, I don't get anymore $$ if my hives are stronger than the standard, so I don't send in bigger than needed hives into pollination. Why put two really big hives into pollination for $400 when I can make them into 3 hives for the price of a $7 queen cell and get $600.

I use double box 3/4 boxes, I place all the brood needed into the bottom box, for 3/4 that is 9 frames at 60% brood, FD it is 7 frames, the brood in both cases is 4 FD equivalent at 100%. The second box is needed to carry the extra bees needed to make the grade, 15-16 frames total for 3/4 and 12-13 total for FD. So no more than ten frames of brood total for each hive, Before those hives go into orchards I place all the brood into the bottom box, all that hive needs is 4 Bayvarol or 2 Apivar or 2 Apistan in the bottom box to meet the requirement for treatment. I choose to treat the other top box which only contains bees and pollen and honey and spare cells with another treatment to give protection as I know the queen will lay more eggs. For 9-10 frames of brood these hives are getting twice the required amount of treatment, and like other agricultural practices I use another chemical. As the treatment for varroa is based on frames of bees on the brood nest not the whole hive. For the honey crop hives are combined with out any treatment in them as I pull it out after pollination. When I treat in Autumn, I split my hives and make them smaller, once again all the brood in the bottom box and fill the top box up with Autumn feed etc, so I still don't have more than 10 frames of brood in them at that time either. The treatments stay in for the allotted time give or take a week, and new treatment is used each time. My hives are in the BOP which is full of hives and many come into the area during pollination, I haven't worried about varroa for the last 5 yrs I have been trying this.

I am not a scientist, I am not telling anyone else to try this, but I am not seeing any issues with this plan at this stage, and Mark Goodwin has mentioned this in the past as a way to go, but without any money for research he hasn't done a study, but you can go on past trials of other compounds as a starting base I guess.

My worry with some mentions on here about trying ox in the mix as well, I would caution you. We know how the varroa strips work and the amount to use and for how long and how effective they are and their mode of action. We don't know any of that with ox, I am also caution people that just use treatments back to back regardless of what they are with out understanding whats happening.

My understanding and chatting to Mark, the two treatments I use will have an effect on the mites while in the hive, against the mites building up resistance to either chemical, when the hives has no treatment in it there is a bigger buildup of mites that have no resistance to any chemical, and when you treat again you take out all the mites.

Pours a glass of whiskey and sits back and waits.

 

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13 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

I have a pin- has anyone seen my grenade.

I need to put some context around why I chose to treat the way I do.

Single FD box brood, double FD brood box, single FD brood box with excluder and a second box, single FD brood box with an excluder and a 3/4 second box, repeat all those options again with 3/4 box's and you have different results, then bring in long hives, top bar hives etc and you see there is no 1 hive in use. The one thing they all have is a laying queen that lays x amount of eggs(brood) and that is what we should be thinking about when deciding on what/how to treat.

 My spring treatment is used during Kiwifruit Pollination, I get paid per hive that meets a set standard, I don't get anymore $$ if my hives are stronger than the standard, so I don't send in bigger than needed hives into pollination. Why put two really big hives into pollination for $400 when I can make them into 3 hives for the price of a $7 queen cell and get $600.

I use double box 3/4 boxes, I place all the brood needed into the bottom box, for 3/4 that is 9 frames at 60% brood, FD it is 7 frames, the brood in both cases is 4 FD equivalent at 100%. The second box is needed to carry the extra bees needed to make the grade, 15-16 frames total for 3/4 and 12-13 total for FD. So no more than ten frames of brood total for each hive, Before those hives go into orchards I place all the brood into the bottom box, all that hive needs is 4 Bayvarol or 2 Apivar or 2 Apistan in the bottom box to meet the requirement for treatment. I choose to treat the other top box which only contains bees and pollen and honey and spare cells with another treatment to give protection as I know the queen will lay more eggs. For 9-10 frames of brood these hives are getting twice the required amount of treatment, and like other agricultural practices I use another chemical. As the treatment for varroa is based on frames of bees on the brood nest not the whole hive. For the honey crop hives are combined with out any treatment in them as I pull it out after pollination. When I treat in Autumn, I split my hives and make them smaller, once again all the brood in the bottom box and fill the top box up with Autumn feed etc, so I still don't have more than 10 frames of brood in them at that time either. The treatments stay in for the allotted time give or take a week, and new treatment is used each time. My hives are in the BOP which is full of hives and many come into the area during pollination, I haven't worried about varroa for the last 5 yrs I have been trying this.

I am not a scientist, I am not telling anyone else to try this, but I am not seeing any issues with this plan at this stage, and Mark Goodwin has mentioned this in the past as a way to go, but without any money for research he hasn't done a study, but you can go on past trials of other compounds as a starting base I guess.

My worry with some mentions on here about trying ox in the mix as well, I would caution you. We know how the varroa strips work and the amount to use and for how long and how effective they are and their mode of action. We don't know any of that with ox, I am also caution people that just use treatments back to back regardless of what they are with out understanding whats happening.

My understanding and chatting to Mark, the two treatments I use will have an effect on the mites while in the hive, against the mites building up resistance to either chemical, when the hives has no treatment in it there is a bigger buildup of mites that have no resistance to any chemical, and when you treat again you take out all the mites.

Pours a glass of whiskey and sits back and waits.

 

Well... gee wiz I’ve consumed 2 glasses of whiskey reading that.. thanks for sharing.. now.. where’s that bottle gone

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Hmm .... How's the whisky ?

The combining of two chemicals is new news to me .....  but if it works , so be it.  You talk of treating frames of brood rather than an amount per brood box.  That is probably the key.  You may well have two brood boxes but  with only  four frames of brood. On the other hand you may well be chocka with 13 frames.  Totally different beast that needs  an up graded approach.

Sips on Green tea and exhales.

 

I guess the conference is canned ?

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12 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

I choose to treat the other top box which only contains bees and pollen and honey and spare cells with another treatment to give protection as I know the queen will lay more eggs

Just to clarify Dennis.  Please explain the other treatment in this top box.  Does it replicate the treatment in the bottom brood box?  

 

This is all news to me.

 

Sounds like it might be news to Bayer who state on their box:

"...It is a requirement to alternate the use of Bayvarol Strips with products from other chemical groups..."

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1 hour ago, Maggie James said:

Just to clarify Dennis.  Please explain the other treatment in this top box.  Does it replicate the treatment in the bottom brood box?  

 

This is all news to me.

 

Sounds like it might be news to Bayer who state on their box:

"...It is a requirement to alternate the use of Bayvarol Strips with products from other chemical groups..."


I would have thought having two different chemicals in the hive at the same time is basically alternating.

 

Edited by frazzledfozzle
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23 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I would have thought having two different chemicals in the hive at the same time is basically alternating.

I don't know.  It will be interesting in this discussion to hear other experiences & opinions.  

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14 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

I have a pin- has anyone seen my grenade.

yeah, I'm mostly to blame I think. Sorry for the explosion. However, I still think it is worthy of discussion even if others seem to be a bit bunched up.

 

I understand difficulties of pollination being a mite jamboree, the new bayer gate could be really handy during pollination. I agree let's leave OAG out of the discussion to focus on the main issues.

 

Maybe it is easier to look at Autumn treatments. So I gather that at this point you have a double 3/4 hive that is full of bees immediately after harvest. After harvest you treat, equalise, split, requeen or do whatever is necessary. At the end of this, I gather you have two Bayvarol and one apivar in each brood box and you put a second box on top containing winter stores.

 

Looking at the newly split hive, this has two boxes, one of brood, 2 bayvarol and 1 apivar, plus one of stores. Some could look at that as two half treatments combined to make one treatment. The question I have is if there is a 'less than full label' dose of each treatment, is it easier for a mite to survive or less easy than an identical hive with a full label dose of a single treatment? 

I think that this is the part which is scary for people like me who don't want to do the wrong thing, particularly if it provides a short term gain but longer term we lose both treatments.

 

There will of course be a few headaches after a grenade explosion of single malt.

If you take half a paracetamol and half an ibuprofen will it work better than one tablet of either?

 

 

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2 hours ago, ChrisM said:

Looking at the newly split hive, this has two boxes, one of brood, 2 bayvarol and 1 apivar, plus one of stores. Some could look at that as two half treatments combined to make one treatment.

My hives after splitting have two boxes bottom with brood and top with stores, both boxes have treatment in them as I do in pollination.

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17 hours ago, jamesc said:

 You talk of treating frames of brood rather than an amount per brood box.

No I have all the brood in the bottom box, treatments are for brood boxes. When chatting to a vet about using the two chemicals in each hive, You would/should use a full dose of each treatment. as I place all my brood in 1 box(the bottom) 4 Bayvarol or 2 Apivar is a full dose. I don't need other strips for the top box as it is not a brood box at the time of placing strips in. But I add another full dose of the other chemical in the top box. But as we know bees move around and a double 3/4 set up is only a 1 &1/2 FD, so I have no problem with the space and dose. The chemicals are alternative to each other.

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7 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

My hives after splitting have two boxes bottom with brood and top with stores, both boxes have treatment in them as I do in pollination.

When your 2 brood boxes get combined after pollination, so you have 4 three quarters and two queens, do two of these 4 become honey boxes? 

It's not unusual for the 2nds to become the honey supers. Just the sugar syrup and treatment residue could linger 

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