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2 hours ago, ChrisM said:

 

Hmm well, with a double brood box hive there are in effect two apivar strips somewhere in the hive for a full treatment of one brood box and there are four strips of Bayvarol somewhere in the hive for a full treatment in the other brood box.

So, is that full treatment for two boxes(?).

Does it really matter how the strips are dealt out?

So then what is defined as full dose?

 

If I have a horizontal format hive with say 20 frames of brood, what is the best way for me to treat it if money is no object? What is a full treatment for such a hive?

 

Why do many people bang on about alternating apivar and bayvarol treatments and is that not important if both are being used together? 

 

Just seeking clarity and best practise..

 

I'm just about finished pulling Apivar and putting in bayvarol in, I went to my problematic sites through winter and done a few rounds of oxalic vaporizing and the hives are looking really good, most alcohol washes came back with zero mites from 350 bees after apivar and ox vaping but I still went ahead with bayvarol for the spring build up to guarantee them for the manuka flow in 8 weeks🤞

 

Apparently it's going to be a drier spring than usual, I've been able to drive in for the first time in 10 years to the majority of my sites although winter.

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This morning was a multi tasking day.. a prep day for Monday.. I shifted some new double Nuc boxes to a site ready for Monday’s job of transferring .. time to cut the cold core flute Nuc box from my o

I think if the AFB was found and reported by a beekeeper then they are far from a useless beekeeper and jn fact are very good beekeepers first for finding it and second for reporting it.   I

Hives are absolutely pumping, still 4 weeks left before my bayvarols due out, just wondering if I'm gonna need to super a few weeks early. Doubles are almost ready for splitting and queen rearing

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46 minutes ago, Maru Hoani said:

Apparently it's going to be a drier spring than usual, I've been able to drive in for the first time in 10 years to the majority of my sites although winter.

From Bob McDavitt:

The International Research Institute of the Climate Prediction Centre compiles data from several ENSO prediction models. The AVERAGED model forecast is going for a weak La Nina during Sep Oct Nov (with a 55% chance) and it may linger to early next year

 

From NIWA:

La Niña events have different impacts on New Zealand's climate. More north–easterly winds are characteristic, which tend to bring moist, rainy conditions to the north–east of the North Island, and reduced rainfall to the south and south–west of the South Island.

Therefore, some areas, such as central Otago and South Canterbury, can experience drought in both El Niño and La Niña. Warmer than normal temperatures typically occur over much of the country during La Niña, although there are regional and seasonal exceptions.

 

So, it might be wet spring in northland?.. what makes you think it will be drier this Spring? Drive around those sites while you can!

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9 hours ago, Maru Hoani said:

I'm just about finished pulling Apivar and putting in bayvarol in, I went to my problematic sites through winter and done a few rounds of oxalic vaporizing and the hives are looking really good, most alcohol washes came back with zero mites from 350 bees after apivar and ox vaping but I still went ahead with bayvarol for the spring build up to guarantee them for the manuka flow in 8 weeks🤞

 

Apparently it's going to be a drier spring than usual, I've been able to drive in for the first time in 10 years to the majority of my sites although winter.

Same with site access. And just added nasty Muddies! Hardly used 4wd. Mud alert all depends on how much rain, how often and where those cows are eating.

 

Maru, surprised you would bother with Bayvarol. I would have saved my moola for after flow. 

 

Seen some Manuka flowering in the Bay, is it on track for usual timing? 

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On 11/08/2020 at 8:04 AM, frazzledfozzle said:

I know Mark Goodwin advocates for using both at the same time so it must be work .

Chatting to Mark today about it, a big thumbs up for it.👍 he says we should have been doing it yrs ago.

He had to rush off so will finish this off with him later about why.

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50 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Chatting to Mark today about it, a big thumbs up for it.👍 he says we should have been doing it yrs ago.

He had to rush off so will finish this off with him later about why.

 

Wow, well maybe I live a sheltered life but I think that is a bit of a 'major discovery' and that all beekeeping clubs and retailers should be promoting it because I don't think anyone really is taught this (?).

 

What do Level 3 tutors instruct their students to do with a two box hive?

 

Presumably the same applies if you mix OAG into this cocktail too, the more the merrier?

 

If in my real world example, I have say 20 frames of brood in a horizontal hive, that is probably pretty close to 3 brood boxes in a vertical format hive. [a candidate to be split and knocked back in due course. ] Anyway, with a three box hive treated by this approach, I could put in 4 tapes of Bayvarol, 2 tapes of apivar and 4 tapes of OAG gib tape. That is a full treatment for each of 3 brood boxes (?). yes/no?

 

The guys who do this for a living and who are under financial stress at the moment, could they consider using OAG tapes in the busiest box and using either Apivar or Bayvarol in the second box? This might at least reduce their costs and their risks (?). But if spending money on Bayvarol regardless there is no extra cost if you buy half Apivar/Traz.

 

This is starting to remind me of those headache pills that contain both paracetamol and ibuprofen as each works on a different pathway.

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With all due respect to the scientific community .....  from a grass roots perspective, when you have to combine two treatments to do the job of one , it sort of sets the alarm bells ringing.

If one treatment will do the job, why not use one , wait a few months, then do an autumn treatment with a different chemical family.

By combining the two tells me you have a varroa problem that is only getting half knocked down by the initial  treatment.... so you give it a double dose, so to speak.

The other thing that worries me is when Maru talks about doing back to back treatments ..... reading between the lines it tells me that the varroa are not getting knocked down by the initail treatment .

I know Northland is a different climate to us down here, but we haven't even cracked a lid yet, let alone thought about treatments.

And the other thing that worries me is the resurgence of Covid.  But then you only gotta look at AFB and know you can never sit back on yer laurels and bask in the sun.

And before  I forget ...... Gino asked about stock drenches and using two different types at once.   

Drench resistance has always been on the horizon in the livestock industry ,,,, with the deer we were having to use two different types, with the choice between an injectable,  a pour on and/or  an oral  to control two  different worm invasions- gut and lung - and the worry was that by combining the two would hasten the inevitability of worm resistance.

To combat that we do feacal counts ...... gathering sht from the pasture and micro analysing it to see who the enemy is.

 

So, back to bees .....  mite counting  before drenching mite save a lot of money?

 

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1 hour ago, ChrisM said:

 

Wow, well maybe I live a sheltered life but I think that is a bit of a 'major discovery' and that all beekeeping clubs and retailers should be promoting it because I don't think anyone really is taught this (?).

 

What do Level 3 tutors instruct their students to do with a two box hive?

 

Presumably the same applies if you mix OAG into this cocktail too, the more the merrier?

 

If in my real world example, I have say 20 frames of brood in a horizontal hive, that is probably pretty close to 3 brood boxes in a vertical format hive. [a candidate to be split and knocked back in due course. ] Anyway, with a three box hive treated by this approach, I could put in 4 tapes of Bayvarol, 2 tapes of apivar and 4 tapes of OAG gib tape. That is a full treatment for each of 3 brood boxes (?). yes/no?

 

The guys who do this for a living and who are under financial stress at the moment, could they consider using OAG tapes in the busiest box and using either Apivar or Bayvarol in the second box? This might at least reduce their costs and their risks (?). But if spending money on Bayvarol regardless there is no extra cost if you buy half Apivar/Traz.

 

This is starting to remind me of those headache pills that contain both paracetamol and ibuprofen as each works on a different pathway.

I know what you are trying to get at.

How much is enough? 

Are we cutting corners? Risk.

Beekeepers do their own thing. 

I personally, treatment goes in the busy brood. And I can't afford double treatment of two types.

So, in October, all my broods in my lower full depth. An excluder and full depth with internal as the second.

3 Apivar in the bottom only. 

I knock our bees back in strength at the time or prior. Maybe 4 broods. 

Am I undertreating? 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, jamesc said:

The other thing that worries me is when Maru talks about doing back to back treatments ..... reading between the lines it tells me that the varroa are not getting knocked down by the initail treatment .

It got me stumped also. Too much money at hand and wary of risk?

If I had 0 mite washes I could wait.

 

26 minutes ago, jamesc said:

So, back to bees .....  mite counting  before drenching mite save a lot of money?

It's what I do. Time consuming, and risky as not all the same. 

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This is incredibly confusing.  We have had it drummed into us for years to alternate manufactured miticides from different chemical families to delay resistance.  I would have thought it no different to the medical profession alternating or lessening some medications to avoid resistance.  So now we are being told, it seems, just use whatever you have got in the shed.  

 

We have been told all along that manufactured miticide chemical resistance will occur (and once again this is no different from the medical profession treating humans), and because of this we need to consider organic treatments.  Not a matter of manufactured chemical resistance occurring, but when.  

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1 hour ago, jamesc said:

The other thing that worries me is when Maru talks about doing back to back treatments ....

i'm not to surprised. far north is really early and its warmer. even here this winter is warm.

bees don't stop like they do in colder areas. with the honey price and people trying to sell up, no doubt there is those walking away from hives or under treating to save costs, that all means re-invasion. as the bees don't stop its really easy to end up with PMS and stuffed hives. 

so no surprise that anyone would treat excessively. just got to do what you can to have usable hives.

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Apart from the first year we got varroa, I have always been lucky in that I have got away with two different chemical families an only for six weeks.  I think there are a number of factors as to why this occurs.

 

Recently I was told by a beekeeping supplier, in front of other commercial beekeepers that the only reason I could do this was because there were no other beekeepers around me.  I disagree, there are other reasons that you can get away with only six weeks per year.  I am not saying that is going to happen every time I treat, but I have been fortunate that it has happened all but once.  

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13 hours ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Same with site access. And just added nasty Muddies! Hardly used 4wd. Mud alert all depends on how much rain, how often and where those cows are eating.

 

Maru, surprised you would bother with Bayvarol. I would have saved my moola for after flow. 

 

Seen some Manuka flowering in the Bay, is it on track for usual timing? 

Bayvarol seems to be working the best at the moment so I put it in right before 75% of the seasons income comes in, my main flow starts in 6 to 8 weeks so now I just go all in for that then just monday to friday 9-5, I used to wreck myself 50-70 hour weeks but now my business is complete I'm not as hungry as i used to be.

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It was a number of years ago I heard Mark Talking about using Apivar and Bayvarol at the same time.

 

If my memory is right he said that it is the most effective way of stopping resistance developing better than alternation and it’s to do with mites not having a chance to develop resistance to one miticide because the other would get it first. 

He also said most beekeepers wouldn’t go for it because of cost.

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3 hours ago, ChrisM said:

I could put in 4 tapes of Bayvarol, 2 tapes of apivar and 4 tapes of OAG gib tape. That is a full treatment for each of 3 brood boxes (?). yes/no?

And a blast of vapour as well why not ? Just to be sure..

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6 minutes ago, yesbut said:

And a blast of vapour as well why not ? Just to be sure..

I tried bayvarol,apistan and apiguard all at once when I first started out with 40 hives but next season I was back to PMS, it can only work if everyone's nuking the mites but most barely keep up with treatments, heaps of people get hives and wonder why they're dying, I take one look and yep deformed wings and mites running around! No wonder I get re invasion and have to put extra treatments in.

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13 minutes ago, yesbut said:

And a blast of vapour as well why not ? Just to be sure..

yes of course, why not indeed. However, wait three days after the flash treatment before putting in the slow treatments.

 

16 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

He also said most beekeepers wouldn’t go for it because of cost.

Unless I have misunderstood Dennis, the cost is not doubled at all. In a double brood hive Dennis is inserting a full treatment into each box. Given the cost of apivar in one box is about the same as Bayvarol in the other box the two brood boxes are each costing the same.

And this is the critical point or difference between what Dennis was discussing and what others have referred to.

If Mark was also saying there is a cost problem, then there is a disconnect that may mean didn't understand the detail of only 4 Bayvarol and 2 Apivar shared around in a double brood box hive; not per box.

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9 hours ago, ChrisM said:

yes of course, why not indeed. However, wait three days after the flash treatment before putting in the slow treatments.

 

Unless I have misunderstood Dennis, the cost is not doubled at all. In a double brood hive Dennis is inserting a full treatment into each box. Given the cost of apivar in one box is about the same as Bayvarol in the other box the two brood boxes are each costing the same.

And this is the critical point or difference between what Dennis was discussing and what others have referred to.

If Mark was also saying there is a cost problem, then there is a disconnect that may mean didn't understand the detail of only 4 Bayvarol and 2 Apivar shared around in a double brood box hive; not per box.

Dennis runs 3/4.  So 2 boxes equals 1.5 full depth. If that helps the conversation.

 

To do things properly, full dose as per instructions on label.

Not so long ago, I was working some place where 4 Bayvarol for 2 full depth. 

And I do 3 Apivar. 2 full depth, brood in first. Not a 2 Brood box hive tho is it? It's a growing single brood with bee space up top.

The label instructions are set by manufacturer. Whether for solid sales, or high effectiveness. 

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10 hours ago, Maggie James said:

Apart from the first year we got varroa, I have always been lucky in that I have got away with two different chemical families an only for six weeks.  I think there are a number of factors as to why this occurs.

 

Recently I was told by a beekeeping supplier, in front of other commercial beekeepers that the only reason I could do this was because there were no other beekeepers around me.  I disagree, there are other reasons that you can get away with only six weeks per year.  I am not saying that is going to happen every time I treat, but I have been fortunate that it has happened all but once.  

I tend to agree with your supplier.

My brother and I run in separate areas. He's relatively neighbour free from October onwards. I am not 

He consistently has lower mite washes in March. 

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13 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

I tend to agree with your supplier

It is a factor.  But there are other factors - when you treat, how you treat (not too little, too late), your pollen sources, stored carbohydrate, good stock, the size of the colony, other disease in the hive, location of apiary, avoidance of robbing i.e. all in all being good at beekeeping. Unfortunately some are surrounded by inefficient beekeepers.  

 

I think it was 14 years I inspected for the SI exotic surveillance programme.  I was given the largest contracts in the Sth Is and I generally used to complete them in a 2-3 week period.  My area was north of Ashuburton to Rangiora, through to the Canty foothills and this included ChCh.  Post quakes, because of cruise ships coming into Akaroa, large parts of Banks Peninsula were added.  My contract included commercial & hobbyist beekeepers.  I was never declined an inspection in all that time from a commercial beekeeper.  My AP1 to whom I reported to for years, told me I was the AP2 they got the least complaints about and I was the most timely and economic; hence my large contracts.  

 

I always felt sorry for those hobbyists in ChCh that did everything text book and got re-infestation.  My synopsis there was that they were near someone who didn't believe in treating, and/or wasn't treating properly.  It always concerned me that with re- infestation more manufactured chemical treatments were used, and this in the end will expedite resistance. 

 

Nowadays most people around here, if they need a third treatment use organic treatments.  Some are using OA strips, others vaping through winter.  Fortunately, organic treatments are evolving, and it is only a matter of time before they will be the only option.

 

Anyway, that's my Epistle for the day

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1 hour ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Dennis runs 3/4.  So 2 boxes equals 1.5 full depth. If that helps the conversation.

 

haha, nope, that only makes it more complicated so I was trying to ignore it to keep things simpler.

 

In any case if you had 1.5 FD boxes, that are fully populated it is easiest to imagine in a horizontal format hive with 15 brood frames. Going by the label it says to treat per brood box of ten. So that would be 6 bayvarol strips.

 

If someone used only 4 bayvarol strips and 2 apivar strips, then they have put in enough to treat each of two FD boxes by the label if the boxes were separate. But if combined was it under treated? Are the risks lower? Is this in fact better? This combination of treatments in a combination of hive boxes is not covered by labels (?).

 

Sorry to be ranting on about this. A friend of mine also does what Dennis described and I've always wanted to get to the bottom of it to figure out what to improve in my own setup; but was too nervous/cautious to try or even ask. Mark Goodwin's words on any topic soon become folklore, but so far I don't think the reported anecdotes match up because there is no increase in price following the route discussed. 

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53 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

 

Sorry to be ranting on about this.

I don't think you are ranting on.  The discussion should be had, and treatment regimes and the amount of boxes on a hive will vary from one end of the country to another for a variety of reasons, and I believe that climate is a big factor in regimes, and in some areas obligations required for a pollination contract.

 

The Bayvarol box states "Dosage: Normally developed colonies receive four (4) strips per brood chamber"

 

I have only ever once used 4 strips per brood chamber and that was the few months after varroa first presented in Canterbury.  Last year because infestation levels appeared high in this area, I used 3 strips per brood box.  Generally, as a rule I only use 2 strips per brood chamber for six weeks.  I am trying to defer chemical resistance.  At this time of the year, I don't have total boxes of brood.  That comes a bit further down the track, generally by the time strips are being removed.  

 

This spring varroa levels in hives I have checked are low.  I have used 2 strips per brood box right slap bang on the brood frames.  In nucs I use one strip, as opposed to the 2 strips recommended on the packet.

 

My thoughts in this climate is that at this time of the year, hives go in and out of cluster, and the cluster does not always return to the same frames, particularly if it's not quite a booming hive yet.  Another reason not to waste strips.  The time I used four strips per brood box, I found this quite an issue at one site exposed to an easterly wind, with strips not being in the cluster because of intermittent weather patterns.  

 

I am not saying that I am correct. I am stating what has worked for me in the past, and cross fingers if the planets align will work this spring with the regime I have used.  

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