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20 minutes ago, Boot said:

Ted - Why bring me into this one?

Hoping you could provide some insight as to how hard it was marketing non Manuka honey at above international prices.

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Hi uncle @Ted  ,   I hope you had a nice day. The weather here has been great , and we finished wintering the bees at lunchtime.  I had a thought we go to the pub and celebrate. Instead

I used to work in Greenshell Mussel research. The structure, culture, strengths, weaknesses, profit margins and outlook of that industry were similar to what the bee industry presents today. To get ou

If you can sell your M at 50 a kilo do your own protection.   M is the wedge prying apart beekeeping, by creating many negative outcomes.   

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3 hours ago, Ted said:

Hoping you could provide some insight as to how hard it was marketing non Manuka honey at above international prices.

Hi Ted 

It is complex, time-consuming and costly. The more value you want to achieve above market price then the more complex, time consuming and costly it becomes.

When you look at this topic You have to start by asking questions.

  • How much volume do we want to sell?
  • How much is available to sell guaranteed each year?
  • How much above market price do you want to achieve? 
  • What is the point of difference? - Give me three points of difference (NOT - NZ, GMO or Clean Green) that makes the honey more valuable than honey from Ukraine, Hungary, Spain or Argentina for example?

The answers to these will lead to some more questions, then maybe some more before we even start to form a picture of the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How?

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Otto said:

I've struggled a bit with this patent. I wasn't a big contributor to that thread but I am of the opinion that discussions and brain-storming ideas on a public forum shouldn't lead to a product patent for one of the people contributing ideas. Then again, maybe Philbee was up front about his desire to get a saleable product out of it... I never did exhaustively read through the thread.

 

I think there is lots of information to generate and share regarding treatment timing, where and how many staples to put into a colony, side-effects of the treatment on the bees, effects of the treatment on other hive pathogens etc... None of these have much to do with a specific delivery system.

 

I think the staples had been patented before the discussion had even started @Otto ? Or at least that was the impression I got. I cannot see it on the IPONZ website but I see this one for Australia and USA which references NZ filings: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/7b/0b/b4/368d6d7cfd7ef3/AU2019219773A1.pdf

Edited by JohnF
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Actually - take that back. Looks like earlier iterations were rejected and patents filed July last year were accepted . . so yes, during the course of the discussions

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4 hours ago, Boot said:

Hi Ted 

It is complex, time-consuming and costly. The more value you want to achieve above market price then the more complex, time consuming and costly it becomes.

When you look at this topic You have to start by asking questions.

  • How much volume do we want to sell?
  • How much is available to sell guaranteed each year?
  • How much above market price do you want to achieve? 
  • What is the point of difference? - Give me three points of difference (NOT - NZ, GMO or Clean Green) that makes the honey more valuable than honey from Ukraine, Hungary, Spain or Argentina for example?

The answers to these will lead to some more questions, then maybe some more before we even start to form a picture of the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How?

Thanks for that @Boot!!  You may have noticed I have been having a regular healthy debate with my nephew @jamesc regarding honey prices and co-ops.  Whilst I admire his passion and optimism that he will achieve $8 a kg in the drum for his White honey and that a co-op would be a pathway to achieving that I just can’t see it happening in the foreseeable future.  Your thoughts??  Interested in your comments around points of difference and that NZ, GMO and Clean Green don’t cut it.  I’m sure nephew James is relying on these as a marketing advantage.  Are you able to expand on your reasons behind them not flying??

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4 hours ago, Boot said:

Hi Ted 

It is complex, time-consuming and costly. The more value you want to achieve above market price then the more complex, time consuming and costly it becomes.

When you look at this topic You have to start by asking questions.

  • How much volume do we want to sell?
  • How much is available to sell guaranteed each year?
  • How much above market price do you want to achieve? 
  • What is the point of difference? - Give me three points of difference (NOT - NZ, GMO or Clean Green) that makes the honey more valuable than honey from Ukraine, Hungary, Spain or Argentina for example?

The answers to these will lead to some more questions, then maybe some more before we even start to form a picture of the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How?

Hi Adam, do you think that non Manuka pricing is too high? I mean, are marketers expecting a too high return?

Trying to sell lower volumes at a premium, next to the Manuka line up.

This premium may put off buyers 

It's the impression I get anyway. 

I do recall some discussion re pricing, that the consumer doesn't care. 

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Hi uncle @Ted  ,

 

I hope you had a nice day.

The weather here has been great , and we finished wintering the bees at lunchtime.  I had a thought we go to the pub and celebrate. Instead I went to the Dentist and lost a little bit of wisdom.

 

Meanwhile my wife , I don't think you've met her at our wedding because you were busy with your bees  , went grocery shopping in Methven. She commented that a local brand of clover was selling for $10/500gm.

That 500gm jar had $1.75 of honey in it .At the price the honey company is paying for that honey. I thought it was hardly worth putting the honey in the jar !

 

Anyway, thankfully the bees are all wintered down. They look good, so I am going on my winter holiday.

 

I'll send you a post card when I get there.

 

Love,

 

Your nephew,

 

James.

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6 minutes ago, jamesc said:

That 500gm jar had $1.75 of honey in it .At the price the honey company is paying for that honey. I thought it was hardly worth putting the honey in the jar !

 

Obviously then the  market worth of the ability to pack & retail honey is $16.50kg 

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5 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Hi uncle @Ted  ,

 

I hope you had a nice day.

The weather here has been great , and we finished wintering the bees at lunchtime.  I had a thought we go to the pub and celebrate. Instead I went to the Dentist and lost a little bit of wisdom.

 

Meanwhile my wife , I don't think you've met her at our wedding because you were busy with your bees  , went grocery shopping in Methven. She commented that a local brand of clover was selling for $10/500gm.

That 500gm jar had $1.75 of honey in it .At the price the honey company is paying for that honey. I thought it was hardly worth putting the honey in the jar !

 

Anyway, thankfully the bees are all wintered down. They look good, so I am going on my winter holiday.

 

I'll send you a post card when I get there.

 

Love,

 

Your nephew,

 

James.

Hi Nephew Jimmy boy @jamesc

 

Glad you’ve got your bees nestled down for the winter.  Sorry to hear about your wisdom tooth - lord knows none of us can afford to lose any more wisdom!!

 

I was devastated to miss your wedding but you know what it’s like being incredibly busy moving kiwifruit hives, chasing Manuka and counting the enormous piles of cash that come with it all!!

 

With regards to the $10 jar of clover your lovely wife saw - by the time Saint Cindy, Supermarket owner, packaging manufacturer, label printer and road transporter take their very large slice of the pie I can’t imagine there’s much left for the packer yet alone the beekeeper. 
 

Hope you have a great winter holiday and please don’t forget to send me a nice holiday snap - preferably mounted!!

 

Yours

 

Uncle Ted

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18 hours ago, jamesc said:

Hi uncle @Ted  ,

 

I hope you had a nice day.

The weather here has been great , and we finished wintering the bees at lunchtime.  I had a thought we go to the pub and celebrate. Instead I went to the Dentist and lost a little bit of wisdom.

 

Meanwhile my wife , I don't think you've met her at our wedding because you were busy with your bees  , went grocery shopping in Methven. She commented that a local brand of clover was selling for $10/500gm.

That 500gm jar had $1.75 of honey in it .At the price the honey company is paying for that honey. I thought it was hardly worth putting the honey in the jar !

 

Anyway, thankfully the bees are all wintered down. They look good, so I am going on my winter holiday.

 

I'll send you a post card when I get there.

 

Love,

 

Your nephew,

 

James.

I am not sure of the retailer or the quantity being sold. However for purpose of simplicity let say the retailer takes 50% GP. You have $10 - GST then divided by 2 then remove the $1.75 for the honey. You now have $2.50 to pay for Jar, Lid. label, labour, compliance, testing, freight, overheads etc. Not much left over really

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Yep ....In all seriousness, you guys are right . Deep down we all know that ..... which beg two questions .....

 

1.      Wot are we gonna do about it ?    and ....

2.      When I come back from my winter holiday spent lazing on a West Coast beach , feasting on fish and tatty, washed down with Montieths around a campfire and watching the sun sink into the ocean,  will I really be inclined to go back to work ..... on the Bees? 

Edited by jamesc
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5 hours ago, Boot said:

I am not sure of the retailer or the quantity being sold. However for purpose of simplicity let say the retailer takes 50% GP. You have $10 - GST then divided by 2 then remove the $1.75 for the honey. You now have $2.50 to pay for Jar, Lid. label, labour, compliance, testing, freight, overheads etc. Not much left over really

Wow. 50% on gross price? 

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30 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Yep ....In all seriousness, you guys are right . Deep down we all know that ..... which beg two questions .....

 

1.      Wot are we gonna do about it ?    and ....

2.      When I come back from my winter holiday spent lazing on a West Coast beach , feasting on fish and tatty, washed down with Montieths around a campfire and watching the sun sink into the ocean,  will I really be inclined to go back to work ..... on the Bees? 

1.  The $64,000 question!!  Unless we can identify a major point of difference for another native honey (think Kanuka, Rewarewa) that gains some traction in the market we will continue to be at the mercy of the historical low international honey prices.

 

2.  Why would you want to go back to work??  The picture you paint of your West Coast holiday sounds so good I’m seriously thinking about selling up and retiring there myself!!  

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Indeed Uncle @Ted  .... 

 

It all comes down to the point of difference .  All the Bullsht apart, maybe APINZ put that in as a research project .... why we Kiwi's want so much for our honey.  I know it's worth more,  we all know why it's  worth more ....  somehow we as an industry need  to quantify  that  and simplify it and put it into  a marketing spiel .

Perhaps the APINZ budget should hire some professional marketers to come up with something unique and launch it into the target market.

It's bit like the Aussie tourism ad ...... the Babe on the beach saying ....'Where the bloody hell are you ?'

Baby ... I'm here, trouble is all the jets are parked up in the desert.

 

Why do I want to go back to work ?   I enjoy it. The part I don't enjoy is not getting paid for it.

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10 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Indeed Uncle @Ted  .... 

 

It all comes down to the point of difference .  All the Bullsht apart, maybe APINZ put that in as a research project .... why we Kiwi's want so much for our honey.  I know it's worth more,  we all know why it's  worth more ....  somehow we as an industry need  to quantify  that  and simplify it and put it into  a marketing spiel .

Perhaps the APINZ budget should hire some professional marketers to come up with something unique and launch it into the target market.

It's bit like the Aussie tourism ad ...... the Babe on the beach saying ....'Where the bloody hell are you ?'

Baby ... I'm here, trouble is all the jets are parked up in the desert.

 

Why do I want to go back to work ?   I enjoy it. The part I don't enjoy is not getting paid for it.

Marketing spiel won’t cut it if there is no real point of difference - would be like flogging a dead horse.  We need to find another native honey with genuine and unique scientifically proven properties that the marketers can then go to work on and get some traction with.  Where are we at with Kanuka research??

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27 minutes ago, jamesc said:

we all know why it's  worth more

I can think of only two reasons which shouldn't be all that hard to simplify, I dunno what good it'll do though.

1) It costs more to produce than the market price.

2) It doesn't come from China.

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6 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Agreed.  Where are we at with Honey dew research .... ?

Exactly!!  That is the key and that is where any research funding should be directed.  All the other projects are important but if we haven’t got a viable industry there is no point!

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The point of difference I tell my customers when selling S. Rata is it only flower once every 3 or 4 years and has to be creamed to be used. I also tell them I cannot leave it on the hive for feed as the bees find it too hard to work and die. That is why I normally put a premium on S. Rata.

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45 minutes ago, Ted said:

Exactly!!  That is the key and that is where any research funding should be directed.  

That’s great for those of us with hives tucked up in the beech.. what say those keepers with only a pasture crop..? 

@jamesc your coast holiday sounds exactly like mine... is my missus not telling me something here? ... could The coop be formed around a driftwood fuelled beach fire..? 

 

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11 hours ago, yesbut said:

 

I can think of only two reasons which shouldn't be all that hard to simplify, I dunno what good it'll do though.

1) It costs more to produce than the market price.

2) It doesn't come from China.

Do you know the price of so called honey from China? It's cheap as.

We have to be aware that there is some nice pure Chinese honey produced. Often in far flung remote areas. These producers are asking more, and are up against their cheating comrades.

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12 hours ago, Ted said:

Marketing spiel won’t cut it if there is no real point of difference - would be like flogging a dead horse.  We need to find another native honey with genuine and unique scientifically proven properties that the marketers can then go to work on and get some traction with.  Where are we at with Kanuka research??

Marketing  spiel still works for 20+ UMF honey even though all research suggests that 10+ is sufficient for treating wounds and that any level of UMF has no proven benefit  when consumed internally.

 

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16 hours ago, jamesc said:

 

It all comes down to the point of difference .  All the Bullsht apart, maybe APINZ put that in as a research project .... why we Kiwi's want so much for our honey.  I know it's worth more,  we all know why it's  worth more ....  somehow we as an industry need  to quantify  that  and simplify it and put it into  a marketing spiel .

 

 

One of the aspects to the levy was that people were keen on the science and research . . but weren't so keen on funding marketing spend.

 

However, as mentioned before there is a marketing story being done as ApiNZ was successful in getting funding from NZStory. ApiNZ has been working with them (govt agency) on how NZ tells, and markets our wider NZ honey story. From the CEO of ApiNZ, Karin Kos:
"That work’s making good progress with launch date in the new few months.  It will include a short video on our great tasting range of honey types and the regional variations and what makes our honey unique, and will be supported with some online info and tools that all of  industry can use. It’s an important start in the right direction to get more of our honeys recognised on the global stage."

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16 hours ago, jamesc said:

  I know it's worth more,  we all know why it's  worth more ....  


you *believe* its worth more James. You’re not the one that needs convincing. 


So, if marketing is now deemed to be an important activity for ApiNZ, that’s fair enough. But is it also fair to assume that those saying what APINZ should or shouldn’t do are members of said organisation ?

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On 6/9/2020 at 6:51 PM, Ted said:

 

 please don’t forget to send me a nice holiday snap - preferably mounted!!


 

hmm interesting mind pictures after reading that ! 😵😜🤢

Or maybe it’s just me ....

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