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Pasture/clover honey prices

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On 1/03/2020 at 8:31 PM, Gino de Graaf said:

I belief there is a ship load of M. Most in my area chase that to the ends of the island. Not pasture. That's spring grounds. Bush blends go hand in hand with M. It's often an early/late crop in the chase. Blend ingredients. 

How much pasture honey  is produced in Northland? 

The non Manuka markets have no great value, a few bucks in it for buyers. Why develop that unless you do big volumes? 

Find some mushrooms

I don't even get any pasture from my hives, 30 odd sites and nothing, probably because farmers are over stocking and most farms up here are half scrub

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1 hour ago, Gino de Graaf said:

The specialists in buying and distribution could try living off 4 50 a kilo. Is that the best you can do over 20. Yes 20, years! Was it too hard? Or no real desire? Or are we muppets taking a caning for profit? 


I think it comes down to the fact the Manuka bubble meant all our honey varieties achieved ridiculous prices because packers were able to turn any kind of honey into Manuka . 
Because beekeepers were selling to Manuka buyers, those packers with other markets like honey dew and clover were all of a sudden looking at having to pay huge prices for that honey which of course they couldn’t do.


 packers that traditionally sold non Manuka honeys would have lost those markets that they had probably put a lot of time and effort into developing.

 

We would be very naive to think they could easily pick those markets up again .

 

As beekeepers we rely on packers and marketers to sell our product we are very much at their mercy and I imagine it would take a lot of time and expertise to get that market going again.

 

its just not realistic to think it can happen overnight. 
 

I don’t see beekeepers making a living out of non Manuka honey anytime soon.

It will be like it was before, where you did the bees in the season and worked for wages over winter. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Emissary said:

A reality check for those with rose tinted memories.

 

Here is the payout schedule of the NZHPCoop.   Taking the reserve bank inflation calculator

https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator

for the top line 0-9mm clover price (Cat 1) and calculating it for today's value using Quarter 2 in the relevant year you get the following values.

  • 1995 $3.39
  • 1996 $4.19
  • 1997 $4.38
  • 1998  $4.60
  • 1999 $4.38

image.thumb.png.9f44c95237fc5c3cb8c2533f31907741.png

 

Points also needing consideration:

The 0-9mm price was usually paid to very little honey (sometimes none at all, but a "price" was listed), most was in the 2,3 and 4 categories.

Retentions of 20% held for 5 years were usual, at which point producers were encouraged to convert the retentions into shares.  At times of high interest rates this presented a huge effect.

 

And in the big crash in 1987 prices fell from $1.90  to $0.70 per kilo or $4.06 down to $1.50 in today's money. 

 

By comparison, we are in much better shape today.

 

Nice ..... could you also please find the Big Mac calculator for those years. 

There is no doubt those prices were good, back then . And we made a living. 

The interesting comparison with the Big Mac calculator is the buying power of a kilo of honey.

Way back then I was making $10 an hour lifting bee boxes.... and was rewarded with the equivalent of about 2.5 kg of clover

honey an hour.

Today I need to give my man over 7 kg of honey an hour to puff his smoker.

 

From an employers perspective, that is not progress.

 

Edited by jamesc
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@frazzledfozzle sure that's the mantra we get told. Is it reality? Or a ploy to pay less. Have a look at supermarkets in Singapore. Loads of Manuka products, jack all pasture. Cause it turns less profit and harder to sell. The spin has been Manuka. I accept that we lost traditional markets on the upswing. 

 

Some like Egmont are developing bigger pasture markets in Woolworths Australia. Good on them. Tho my 4.50 turns into 9.50 a 500g. That's 2.25 honey inside 9.50. or 7.25 for the rest. 

 

Currently at 7.00 on special. 

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1 hour ago, jamesc said:

From an employers perspective, that is not progress.

 

Definitely not progress for a self employed person

 

1999 extraction $2.50 per box (8 frames) at the extraction plant, now over $10.  No AP14 (another tax to keep someone employed whilst duplicating information already supplied to the apiary register and harvest dec).  No varroa (treatments, extra requeening, extra labour, extra travel).  Apiaries closer. No being squeezed out by other beekeepers or dairy.  AFB PMP cheaper.  

 

1/4 acre section rates $600 p.a. now $3000 p.a.  health insurance risen.  all other insurances risen, particularly post quake and worse in highers affected by quakes.  And that's just some of the increases before you even start to think about raising kids and education.  

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

packers that traditionally sold non Manuka honeys would have lost those markets that they had probably put a lot of time and effort into developing.

Definitely compounding situation.  20 years ago most beech dew exported to Europe.  Breakfast cereals and other foods manufactured used honey.  Now most likely cane sugar.  

NZers could afford to buy honey at the supermarket.  NZers were huge consumers of honey for brekkie.

14 hours ago, Gino de Graaf said:

The only clover from NZ, by Sweet Meadow. At 16 for 500gm. At the high end of pricing.

Sweet Meadow the only NZ provider, Manuka as well. 

Who's sweet Meadow?

 

Interesting the power of a marketing brand and making the customer feel good and seen greenery.  Can't say I have ever seen manuka grown in a meadow.  

14 hours ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Never mind, a Te Puke operator.

 

14 hours ago, Gino de Graaf said:

t's Comvita

 

On 1/03/2020 at 10:44 AM, jamesc said:

Okaaaay ..... so back in '95 the shelf price for 500gm was $4.00 and the the bulk price was $3.00/kg.

Fastforward  25 years and the bulk price is random at $3.50 -$4.00/kg , but the price of a 500gm on the shelf is .... I haven't bought groceries for quite a few months now.

 

You get my drift.

 

$3.50-$4.00/kg today is unscrupulous robbery and explains why Beekeepers are going broke fast.

 

I think we are really going to start seeing major evidence of beekeepers going broke.  Not just beekeepers producing honey have to be wary.  We all know that beekeeping suppliers have tightened the belts on who and how much credit they give.  Extraction plants have to be wary, if a beekeeper has receivers after them and the beekeeper's honey is on your property unfortunately you can't take that honey in lieu of extraction payment.  The receivers seize it and the extraction plant has to get in the line with all the other creditors.   So if your paperwork shows that the honey is being stored by you, and ownership has not transferred to you, and you have not been paid.....

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54 minutes ago, Maggie James said:

and the beekeeper's honey is on your property un

So in theory if you had hives on your property belonging to a beek they were liquidating they could come on your property to get them .?

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

So in theory if you had hives on your property belonging to a beek they were liquidating they could come on your property to get them .?

 

Sadly, Maggie is correct. A bit like the unfair recievership laws that mean when a small sub contractor is working on a building site and the main contractor goes bust, the small sub contractor is not only not paid for his work, but also not allowed to go back and retrieve the materials he had there, or even his tools and in some cases vehicle. Lot's of hard working and honest tradesmen have suffered serious harm due to that.

 

If an extractor was holding honey for a beekeeper and the beekeeper went into recievership, the honey would become the property of the reciever, wether or not the extractor had been paid for extracting it. Not sure where things would go if the extractor denied entry to the reciever to go get the honey, but pretty sure that end of day the reciever could enforce that the honey be handed over. The extractor would then join the line of claimants, hoping to be paid in part for what they were owed in extracting fees, as the beekeepers assetts were wound up by the reciever.

Edited by Alastair
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I believe also if an extractor goes under any and all honey stored on the premises now belongs to the receiver no matter who it actually belongs too.

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Yes that is the case. The system sucks.

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29 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I believe also if an extractor goes under any and all honey stored on the premises now belongs to the receiver no matter who it actually belongs too.

😳

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8 minutes ago, Stoney said:

😳

😙

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I believe also if an extractor goes under any and all honey stored on the premises now belongs to the receiver no matter who it actually belongs too.

Within a 10 km radius of the Leeston township there are two large extraction facilities.  I am 99.999999% certain those two long term businesses are very financially secure.

 

Hopefully not too much honey is seized from various situations, because that could potentially affect the already low prices being offered to beekeepers.

 

 

Edited by Maggie James
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43 minutes ago, jamesc said:

😙

I gotta say I didn’t expect to be back on the tools what with me drums of so called gold sitting in someone else’s shed but here I am, 30 deg dripping sweat onto stone slabs instead of top bars.. groceries to buy and regos to pay... 

04489E50-B68A-4B3D-8427-E8CC422838CA.png

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22 minutes ago, Maggie James said:

 I am 99.999999% certain those two long term businesses are very financially secure.

 

I hope you are right, likely you are.

 

But something that living in Auckland, and having a finger in businesses other than beekeeping, has taught me, is you can never tell and appearances can be deceptive.

 

Established long term, pffft. Thomas Cook, established 178 years ago, goes under. Nobody suspected and thousands of surprised tourists are left broke and stranded all over ther world. The British Royal Airforce have to launch rescue missions.

 

Nobody buying up Comvita shares at $9 apiece could see anything other than the price skyrocketing.

 

 

.

6 minutes ago, Stoney said:

I gotta say I didn’t expect to be back on the tools what with me drums of so called gold sitting in someone else’s shed but here I am

 

Good you have other skills Stoney. And unlike honey, probably in high demand right now.

 

Prior to revealing yourself as a stone mason, I had thought your monica must be an indicator of a smokey habit. 😎

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

Good you have other skills Stoney. And unlike honey, probably in high demand right now.

 

Prior to revealing yourself as a stone mason, I had thought your monica must be an indicator of a smokey habit. 😎

 

 

I think these days a small operator like myself with family and mortgages needs to be flexible as far as income goes.. skills or no skills we have to seek the income wherever it may be.. 

I have a great summer spot for my bees.. and also have hive numbers I can easily service while seeking employment if required. 

Its not the perfect business model by any means, it’s still playing poker but I’m doing something I love knowing I have to get out there and get work as well..

just had expected to sell the crop and been out chasing stags in the big country by now.. naive.. very naive I think. 

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Ha .... variety is the spice ... the seesaw of life with a bit of adventure to hot wire the brain.

perfect.

58 minutes ago, Stoney said:

I gotta say I didn’t expect to be back on the tools what with me drums of so called gold sitting in someone else’s shed but here I am, 30 deg dripping sweat onto stone slabs instead of top bars.. groceries to buy and regos to pay... 

04489E50-B68A-4B3D-8427-E8CC422838CA.png

Is that a path?

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11 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Ha .... variety is the spice ... the seesaw of life with a bit of adventure to hot wire the brain.

perfect.

Is that a path?

Kind of a path I guess.. 

could also be seen as the rock solid link between the buyer and seller... in case deemed off topic... 

Ill call it the co op. 😬

..jeez maybe Alistair is right about my nickname.. 

F844368B-A041-4630-A68C-47850FF8C525.png

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2 hours ago, Alastair said:

Yes that is the case. The system sucks.

 

Are we certain that is the case?  The extractor doesn't own the honey.  The receiver shouldn't have a claim to it.

If I take my car in for a WOF and the garage goes into receivership, I get my car back.

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Is that decking macrocarpa ?

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4 minutes ago, yesbut said:

Is that decking macrocarpa ?

It’s actually larch , not a timber I would have thought to use due to splinters but it looks and works well. Got an oil on it. 

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33 minutes ago, CraBee said:

Are we certain that is the case?  The extractor doesn't own the honey.  The receiver shouldn't have a claim to it.

If I take my car in for a WOF and the garage goes into receivership, I get my car back.

 

Hmm Craig you have me wondering.

 

I base what I said from when i ran another business and had equipment in a building of a client who went into liquidation. First i knew was my employees calling me to say they were refused entry. I got the details of the liquidator and contacted them and said I had equipment in the building i would like to go collect it. I was basically told "tough bikkies".

 

After a few days they called me and said they still needed my services, but i would be paid by the liquidator and only from the day of re-starting work. I took up the offer, put the staff back in, instructing them to leave no gear on site and i snuck in myself and removed the big stuff.

 

Nothing eventuated, i was probably too small a fish for them to worry about, although i do know they audited everything on site and some former directors were prosecuted for skulling some expensive wine when they had been allowed back in.

 

This formed my understanding of how it works, but hey, I'm no lawyer.

 

I do know for absolute certain of tradies not allowed to even collect their tools of trade. A common happening, and an injustice that should be addressed by those in ivory towers. I have had dealings with several clients going bankrupt and in each case the liquidators pretty much acted like Nazi's, locking down the premises and securing everything on site, regardless who owned it.

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1 hour ago, Alastair said:

hope you are right, likely you are.

 

But something that living in Auckland, and having a finger in businesses other than beekeeping, has taught me, is you can never tell and appearances can be deceptive.

 

All I can say is God help the rest of NZ if those plants go under

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22 minutes ago, Maggie James said:

All I can say is God help the rest of NZ if those plants go under

Are you saying that the circumstances which close those plants  will also close down other industry ?

Or are you saying if those plants close it'll be the end of the honey business ?

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1 hour ago, CraBee said:

 

Are we certain that is the case?  The extractor doesn't own the honey.  The receiver shouldn't have a claim to it.

If I take my car in for a WOF and the garage goes into receivership, I get my car back.

There was a well documented case of a group of yachties at Bucklands Beach who all bought matching fibreglass hull and decks for 'finish at home keelers', completed and fully paid for when the receiver notified that they has taken possession of them, so night-time raid, and collected very quietly hidden in barns around the town. Had they not acted,   they would have landed up with nothing, and in a sailing mad town where no-one was going to talk.

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