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Pasture/clover honey prices


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1 hour ago, Ted said:

Nail on the head!!  Historically the price for our pasture honey was based on the world market price and beekeepers budgeted their operations on that (low prices but no corporates either)!!  Along came Mānuka blending and the price for pasture honey sky rocketed.  That extreme blending is obviously a thing of the past so back we go to the good old days of our pasture and bush honey prices being based on world honey prices.  Undoubtedly there will be a few niche lines of varietal honey that will exceed that but like it or not the vast majority of our pasture honey is nothing special - it’s just honey!!  

$12kg is the same price as Pak n Save.  

World honey price will always dictate the price paid to NZ Beekeepers simply because we produce far more than can be consumed domestically.  Just because you see honey sitting on a shelf at some astronomical price doesn’t mean consumers are buying it - and even if they were the volume would be very insignificant.  Again - the bulk of the pasture type honey produced in NZ is nothing special - it’s just honey!!

Uncle Ted .... would u please stop talking the price down.

It was explained to me years ago that the reason we have RMP’s and Pest Management systems is so the we can gain market access to quality markets.

If we are gonna produce honey at world market prices.... then perhaps there is a case to dump the RMP and PMS.?

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The average NZer can't afford to buy honey at the supermarket!  So, the domestic consumer has to be enticed to buy NZ honey.  

 

 

2 hours ago, jamesc said:

My market....world price is only a guide.

If you go out and look u can do a lot better than world price.

Domestic price at jimmyc’s end of road honey shop is $12/kg and my customers  ask why it’s so cheap....?

 

1 hour ago, Ted said:

$12kg is the same price as Pak n Save.  

No prizes as to guessing which is the better quality.  Hence the commitment to the enjoyable drive out to Whitecliffs dead end valley 

3 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Uncle Ted .... would u please stop talking the price down.

It was explained to me years ago that the reason we have RMP’s and Pest Management systems is so the we can gain market access to quality markets.

If we are gonna produce honey at world market prices.... then perhaps there is a case to dump the RMP and PMS.?

 

Maybe just the cost of the RMP just needs to come down substantially.  

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50 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Uncle Ted .... would u please stop talking the price down.

It was explained to me years ago that the reason we have RMP’s and Pest Management systems is so the we can gain market access to quality markets.

If we are gonna produce honey at world market prices.... then perhaps there is a case to dump the RMP and PMS.?

I’m certainly not trying to talk it down - I’m just taking a realistic approach as to the how’s and whys we have ended up where we are.  The reality is we are a commodity producer so are at the mercy of the markets.  If you want to sit on your honey until you get $8 - fair enough I wish you all the best.  Good plan to dump RMP - no market access would certainly fix the problem!!?

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I think that is where we have to change our thinking.

I am not a producer of a commodity. I am the  producer of one of the most revered  natural sweetners in the world, and as such am a price setter. 

 

If I was honey producer in Canada, Romania or Poland I would not be subject to stringent RMP requirements and  I could dose my bees with antibiotics to sort out the AFB ..... and my honey would still  have access to the world, albeit at a  lower price.

So I say again, If Canada, Romania and Poland can sell honey to the world with no RMP's ( not too mention antibiotics) ..... and if we are prepared to accept world honey prices,  then we should ditch all the beaurocratic protocol that keeps the likes of Tommy Dave alive ( no offence Bud)  and save us all quite  a few dollars in the process.

So now, I think I will duck for cover in the shed and hone the edge on my Hive Tool.

 

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25 minutes ago, jamesc said:

I think that is where we have to change our thinking.

I am not a producer of a commodity. I am the  producer of one of the most revered  natural sweetners in the world, and as such am a price setter. 

 

If I was honey producer in Canada, Romania or Poland I would not be subject to stringent RMP requirements and  I could dose my bees with antibiotics to sort out the AFB ..... and my honey would still  have access to the world, albeit at a  lower price.

So I say again, If Canada, Romania and Poland can sell honey to the world with no RMP's ( not too mention antibiotics) ..... and if we are prepared to accept world honey prices,  then we should ditch all the beaurocratic protocol that keeps the likes of Tommy Dave alive ( no offence Bud)  and save us all quite  a few dollars in the process.

So now, I think I will duck for cover in the shed and hone the edge on my Hive Tool.

 

Good for you!!  Go set your price and let us all know when your sheds empty.?

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56 minutes ago, Ted said:

The reality is we are a commodity producer so are at the mercy of the markets.

More correctly the "mercy" of the packers/exporters unless we do our own of course. The opportunities are there as some will full know.

There is a Apimondia report that asserts that 40% of the 'World" honey is adulterated. 

Another large percentage use antibiotics.

 

Talking with people of various Asian countries is interesting - they know the NZ story and voraciously seek any product from NZ including our honey.

Beeks in NZ need to speak up! Or not .....and be had for breakfast, lunch and tea as we are currently.

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5 minutes ago, Ali said:

More correctly the "mercy" of the packers/exporters unless we do our own of course. The opportunities are there as some will full know.

There is a Apimondia report that asserts that 40% of the 'World" honey is adulterated. 

Another large percentage use antibiotics.

 

Talking with people of various Asian countries is interesting - they know the NZ story and voraciously seek any product from NZ including our honey.

Beeks in NZ need to speak up! Or not .....and be had for breakfast, lunch and tea as we are currently.

Amen to that Brother ..... Fortune Favours the Brave.

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A 50% drop in prices is not a new thing in the industry and has happened before. I agree that some packers are trying to get honey as cheaply as possible and using that cheap honey to undercut competitors who are paying a fair price. If this continues for too long we will end up with no packers left in the industry except for those who are just out to make as much as possible and have no feeling of responsibility towards  beekeepers. When things improve and they always have  eventually then I hope everyone remembers those who treated beekeepers fairly and those who screwed them royally.

At the moment things are still getting worse and that is a real worry. Confidence has been lost and until it returns things won't get any better .

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7 minutes ago, john berry said:

A 50% drop in prices is not a new thing in the industry and has happened before. I agree that some packers are trying to get honey as cheaply as possible and using that cheap honey to undercut competitors who are paying a fair price. If this continues for too long we will end up with no packers left in the industry except for those who are just out to make as much as possible and have no feeling of responsibility towards  beekeepers. When things improve and they always have  eventually then I hope everyone remembers those who treated beekeepers fairly and those who screwed them royally.

At the moment things are still getting worse and that is a real worry. Confidence has been lost and until it returns things won't get any better .

I got screwed royally once ..... it was great !

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I believe that the queens I produce are of a consistently high quality. My clients agree, but this doesn't mean that I'm not having to drop my price to be in the same ball park as other beekeepers who are now magically breeders. 

 

I can stand by my product, service and cost and let the muppet 'breeders' win. Or I can get the word out and fight my corner, and adjust my price to give my clients some relief and keep myself in the game.

 

The same applies to honey. Sure, try to find new markets, talk up the quality etc but pragmatism has its place too. We all want to be here next season and afterwards. 

 

Pride doesnt pay my bills or feed my family. 

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16 minutes ago, BSB said:

I believe that the queens I produce are of a consistently high quality. My clients agree, but this doesn't mean that I'm not having to drop my price to be in the same ball park as other beekeepers who are now magically breeders. 

 

I can stand by my product, service and cost and let the muppet 'breeders' win. Or I can get the word out and fight my corner, and adjust my price to give my clients some relief and keep myself in the game.

 

The same applies to honey. Sure, try to find new markets, talk up the quality etc but pragmatism has its place too. We all want to be here next season and afterwards. 

 

Pride doesnt pay my bills or feed my family. 

Too true,   but  if you sell at  $3.50 -$4.00/kg  I'll guarantee you'll be driving someone else's truck full time next year.

I had a big think this morning while sitting in my truck waiting for the rain downpour to stop so I could hang on the end of the crane again ..... I am better off to leave the fruit of my hard work in the shed and get a job that rewards me for that  hard work every two weeks , and wait for the price to improve, which it will, rather than sell at the bottom end of the market.

It's exactly like Covid  19.

The market is scared and desperate and selling out.

 

Fear not ....  Ted will  be there to buy your honey when it has doubled in price.  

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31 minutes ago, BSB said:

I believe that the queens I produce are of a consistently high quality. My clients agree, but this doesn't mean that I'm not having to drop my price to be in the same ball park as other beekeepers who are now magically breeders. 

 

I can stand by my product, service and cost and let the muppet 'breeders' win. Or I can get the word out and fight my corner, and adjust my price to give my clients some relief and keep myself in the game.

 

The same applies to honey. Sure, try to find new markets, talk up the quality etc but pragmatism has its place too. We all want to be here next season and afterwards. 

 

Pride doesnt pay my bills or feed my family. 

Some customers are switching to more cells.

 

I guess that cuts out the muppet breeders, cos they prob can't produce a good cell to sell.  

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So getting back to the original question. $6kg is minimum anyone will be looking for for volumes of pasture honey? Not liking my chances of stitching a deal together at that number....oh well better stick to the breeding then ?

Just now, Maggie James said:

Some customers are switching to more cells.

 

I guess that cuts out the muppet breeders, cos they prob can't produce a good cell to sell.  

I have had queen clients ringing to discuss cell size and quality from another supplier. I was horrified by what theh were getting. Unfortunately the strait is a bit of a barrier to shipping cells at this stage. 

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40 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Too true,   but  if you sell at  $3.50 -$4.00/kg  I'll guarantee you'll be driving someone else's truck full time next year.

I had a big think this morning while sitting in my truck waiting for the rain downpour to stop so I could hang on the end of the crane again ..... I am better off to leave the fruit of my hard work in the shed and get a job that rewards me for that  hard work every two weeks , and wait for the price to improve, which it will, rather than sell at the bottom end of the market.

It's exactly like Covid  19.

The market is scared and desperate and selling out.

 

Fear not ....  Ted will  be there to buy your honey when it has doubled in price.  

Ha ha Jimmy boy - I can assure you I have no interest in buying anyone’s honey!!  Never have - never will.

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Let us not imagine that all honey produced overseas is rubbish. There is some high quality honey coming out of Canada, the US, and even China, yes, you better believe it.

 

My own view is that NZ has some advantage in some parts of the world, in that we are seen as clean, green, and pure. We may be able to play on that to some extent.

 

Other than that, we are playing with the big boys. The domestic market which is currently protected due to biosecurity concerns, is where it is at. However production has to come way down to capitalise on that.

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7 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

 

 The domestic market which is currently protected due to biosecurity concerns, is where it is at. However production has to come way down to capitalise on that.

It's also protected by the Food Act which stops a screaming horde of hobbyists like me flooding the roadsides...

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2 hours ago, BSB said:

So getting back to the original question. $6kg is minimum anyone will be looking for for volumes of pasture honey? Not liking my chances of stitching a deal together at that number....oh well better stick to the breeding then ?

I have had queen clients ringing to discuss cell size and quality from another supplier. I was horrified by what theh were getting. Unfortunately the strait is a bit of a barrier to shipping cells at this stage. 

When I was up north my queen raiser used to send me cells .... they were packed in a warm polystyrene box and came up via Air new Zealand .... a couple of hour hop in the aircraft, then popped into the truck incubator, easy as.

Much the same as JD from Napier used to do .... only they came up on the bus.

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4 hours ago, jamesc said:

Hmmm .... I sense a bit of Cynicism from Uncle Ted. Is Uncle an  unscrupulous pirate profiteer  .?

based on his postsi just assumed he is a buyer (or on behalf of) and doing everything he can to push prices down and maximise revenue for his employer. Which is ok if not pretending to be something else

based on his subsequent post, looked like my assumption was wrong

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8 hours ago, tommy dave said:

based on his postsi just assumed he is a buyer (or on behalf of) and doing everything he can to push prices down and maximise revenue for his employer. Which is ok if not pretending to be something else

based on his subsequent post, looked like my assumption was wrong

Quite wrong. I am a run of the mill commercial beekeeper who has been in the game for a long time and have seen the prices pre and post Manuka boom.  I’m certainly not trying to talk prices down - I’m simply a realist who understands why prices are where they are now.

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Ok ....lets take a snapshot back in history.

Someone with a penchant for trolling through data will enjoy the challenge.

Compare honey prices paid to NZ beekeepers in relation to world price , five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago.

 

Of interest would be to then put those prices along side the cost of a Big Mac ... or a Mercator pocket knife .... five, ten and fifteen years ago.

The result would possibly be an indicator  of the state of play of todays industry, and whether we are all really deluding ourselves as to the profitability of our business's.

 

 

I may have mentioned it before , my take on the price of honey used to be the Mercator scale ..... how many kg of clover it took to buy  the renowned German pocket knife.

Twenty years ago I could get one for a kilo of honey... these days I think you need a kilo of very good quality Manuka honey.

I don't buy them anymore.

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6 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Ok ....lets take a snapshot back in history.

Someone with a penchant for trolling through data will enjoy the challenge.

Compare honey prices paid to NZ beekeepers in relation to world price , five years ago, ten years ago, fifteen years ago.

 

Of interest would be to then put those prices along side the cost of a Big Mac ... or a Mercator pocket knife .... five, ten and fifteen years ago.

The result would possibly be an indicator  of the state of play of todays industry, and whether we are all really deluding ourselves as to the profitability of our business's.

 

 

I may have mentioned it before , my take on the price of honey used to be the Mercator scale ..... how many kg of clover it took to buy  the renowned German pocket knife.

Twenty years ago I could get one for a kilo of honey... these days I think you need a kilo of very good quality Manuka honey.

I don't buy them anymore.

Ok so 1995 $3kg -3.5 for water white

Diesel 48cents

Wage $10 

No varroa

No extra staff needed.

House's under 100k.

Fj 45 main beekeeping truck.

Shed fees 85$ year 

Honey was sold every year. 

Sometimes befor it was in drums

Shelf price of honey $4. For 500 grams

(I think memory a bit rusty)

 

 

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And how many hives then? 350000? And how much honey per hive? And what was the price for manuka? And site rentals? And what has happened internationally? 

 

The point is that our industry has changed immensely over the years since then so straight comparisons are a bit flawed. In a mature settled industry maybe but not in ours. 

 

Anyway, as a beekeeper of 20 years I'm hoping the price comes up...we shall see I guess. 

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19 minutes ago, Nuc_man said:

Ok so 1995 $3kg -3.5 for water white

Diesel 48cents

Wage $10 

No varroa

No extra staff needed.

House's under 100k.

Fj 45 main beekeeping truck.

Shed fees 85$ year 

Honey was sold every year. 

Sometimes befor it was in drums

Shelf price of honey $4. For 500 grams

(I think memory a bit rusty)

 

 

And what was the world market price back then??

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