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15 minutes ago, Sailabee said:

 

There are dominant and recessive genes, in humans, two brown eyed people can have a blue eyed child, but two blue eyed cannot have a brown eyed child, as brown is a dominant gene, and if it was present in either parent, they would have brown eyes - perhaps that also applies to bee colouring. 

I don't understand why you said that in response to the point of Matt. While I'm sure you are correct about children of two people. It doesn't apply to drones does it? As I understood it, the drone is the child of an unfertilised egg, so that is the mother only (no dad). Essentially a chicken egg from a flock where there is no rooster, that (oddly) is able to hatch. So, the drone is 100% of the queen's genetics, nobody else. Is that right or wrong?

 

All this discussion and complexity in this thread is confusing me.

 

So, if the queen herself is a mutt half black and half yellow, then I'd expect all her drones to be the same; none pure black and non pure yellow. Any pure black or yellow drones are from visiting drones of no fixed abode. (?). So, while the mix of genes can allow breeding and development of new queens and new worker bees never seen before. I don't see any scope for variation of the drones from a given queen.

 

Are there some exceptions to this?

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1 minute ago, ChrisM said:

So, if the queen herself is a mutt half black and half yellow, then I'd expect all her drones to be the same; none pure black and non pure yellow. Any pure black or yellow drones are from visiting drones of no fixed abode. (?). So, while the mix of genes can allow breeding and development of new queens and new worker bees never seen before. I don't see any scope for variation of the drones from a given queen.

I agree with you .

 

From the few hives I have and my observations , the drones from one queen always look about the same .

The exception to this is when there are two queens in the hive .

 

I’m with you @ChrisM. I don’t understand how it can be any different to this and I’ve missed it in the past 

 

Anything is possible I guess 

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5 hours ago, David Yanke said:

Remember the uniqueness of Drones, they are haploid, having developed from an unfertilised egg, so all their genetics comes from the Queen only(nothing to do with drones she mates with), so the drones inherit only one of the 2 possible variations(alleles) of each of the Queens  genes. 

.

 

22 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

So, if the queen herself is a mutt half black and half yellow, then I'd expect all her drones to be the same; none pure black and non pure yellow. Any pure black or yellow drones are from visiting drones of no fixed abode. (?). 

 

Well , no to you both.

A queen has many more than 2 allelles, and can pass many different genetic combinations to her unfertilized offspring.

One queen may produce drones of many types.

Edited by Alastair
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When selecting queens as breeders one of our top criteria is all yellow drones Any queen that throws both yellow, black or that kind of orangey mix isn’t used as a breeder.

 

We are trying to keep our queens as Italian like as possible so yellow drones is a must.

 

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1 hour ago, Alastair said:

.

 

 

Well , no to you both.

A queen has many more than 2 allelles, and can pass many different genetic combinations to her unfertilized offspring.

One queen may produce drones of many types.

I am afraid you are wrong.  While there can be many different alleles for any one gene, the Queen can only carry 2 alleles for any particular gene. One allele from her mother, and  the other allele from the spermatozoa that fertilised the egg from which she developed. 

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5 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

I am afraid you are wrong.  While there can be many different alleles for any one gene, the Queen can only carry 2 alleles for any particular gene. One allele from her mother, and  the other allele from the spermatozoa that fertilised the egg from which she developed. 

 

In general with genetics, one characteristic can be defined by more than one allele, often several working together, so there are multiple combinations if there is more than one to define the colour of a drone.

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

I am afraid you are wrong. 

 

Well again, no.

 

Perhaps i am not good at explaining, so i have googled up an article that can do a better job than I. From it (highlight mine) -

 

"You'll notice that the egg can only carry half of the queens 32 chromosomes so she can only pass on half of her genes to her offspring. Each egg contains a unique collection of her genes, so each egg is different. Drones on the other hand only have 16 chromosomes to begin with, so each sperm must contain all the genes of the drone. This means that each sperm from a drone is exactly identical, they are clones".

 

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/principles.html

 

There are more "technical" articles available if you require i will link, this is a simple English language one I have chosen for the benefit of all the readers.

.

But bottom line here, the many different genetic combinations that can be present in a queens egg mean there can be considerable variation in the drones produced by a hybrid queen, not just 2 types. 

.

EDIT - I think i can see your error. Are you thinking that because the queen gives 1/2 her genes to an egg, that she gives exactly the same 1/2 to one egg every time, then exactly the other 1/2 of her genes every time to the other egg?

 

 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

Well again, no.

 

Perhaps i am not good at explaining, so i have googled up an article that can do a better job than I. From it (highlight mine) -

 

"You'll notice that the egg can only carry half of the queens 32 chromosomes so she can only pass on half of her genes to her offspring. Each egg contains a unique collection of her genes, so each egg is different. Drones on the other hand only have 16 chromosomes to begin with, so each sperm must contain all the genes of the drone. This means that each sperm from a drone is exactly identical, they are clones".

 

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/principles.html

 

There are more "technical" articles available if you require i will link, this is a simple English language one I have chosen for the benefit of all the readers.

.

But bottom line here, the many different genetic combinations that can be present in a queens egg mean there can be considerable variation in the drones produced by a hybrid queen, not just 2 types. 

.

EDIT - I think i can see your error. Are you thinking that because the queen gives 1/2 her genes to an egg, that she gives exactly the same 1/2 to one egg every time, then exactly the other 1/2 of her genes every time to the other egg?

 

 

 

 

Hi Alastair,  I am not in error, your are clouding the issue, which is simple.  You said that a Queen can have more than 2 alleles of the same gene. That is wrong.  She can only carry 2 alleles of the same gene. Sure every egg a Queen produces is unique because of crossing over during meiosis, that gives different unique combinations of genes, but the genes are discreet, they don't change during the crossing over.  The Queen carried 2 copies going into meiosis, and the egg coming out at the end of meiosis carries only one of those 2 copies. Nothing I have said is wrong, it is just basic genetics. As well, body colour is probably determined by several genes, but if you have a true F1 Hybrid where the Queen which was reared from let's say a purebred Italian Queen that was inseminated purebred carnica drones, the drones will  be half Italian type and  half will be carnica type.   

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

 your are clouding the issue, which is simple.  You said that a Queen can have more than 2 alleles of the same gene. That is wrong. 

 

I did not say that at all. Why twist something i said into something untrue, then call me out as wrong, when i never even said it?

 

I said this. 

 

5 hours ago, Alastair said:

A queen has many more than 2 allelles, and can pass many different genetic combinations to her unfertilized offspring.

 

Because one of your previous posts implied you think queens only have 2 alleles.

 

We are not just talking about F1 hybrids here.

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1 hour ago, Alastair said:

 

I did not say that at all. Why twist something i said into something untrue, then call me out as wrong, when i never even said it?

 

I said this. 

 

 

Because one of your previous posts implied you think queens only have 2 alleles.

 

We are not just talking about F1 hybrids here.

OMG, Read my posts on this subject again, I stated a simple fact, you said it was wrong, and because it was basic genetics, not personal opinion, I didn't let it go, and tried to correct you- I wasn't trying to twist anything you said.  I think we should both just let it go now. 

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But you did twist what I said.

 

As to calling people wrong, it was you repeatedly saying that I was wrong. I did not directly say that to you, i would not be so rude.

 

l'm not interested in having a he said / she said debate, or in fact didn't want an argument at all. Or to broaden the argument to things I wasn't talkiing about. My original statement was simply that a queen can produce drones with many genetic variations. That's all.

 

Since all the reputable literature and studies would agree with me on that, perhaps you could too.

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Wanna know something interesting? 

 

What do you think would be a big advantage in drones being haploid?

 

Well I'll tell you. In most creatures including us that are diploid, we can carry all sorts of harmful and fatal genes, that are overuled by the other gene in the pair. But can be passed to the next generation.

 

But a haploid drone not having a gene set  pair but just the one gene set, if that gene is defective or fatal it manifests, and the drone is eliminated from the mating pool and it is not passed on. Helps keep bee genetics good. 🙂

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Can I suggest getting your Ancestry DNA done - that is the best one, and the graphics and facts regarding your own proportion of genetic inheritance from each parent is not the strict 50:50% we think - two siblings getting it done, and results can show one has a higher proportion from one or other parent, the graphs representation of the segments of each gene is fascinating. I had mine done a year ago for genealogy research, and while I already had a considerable knowledge of cell biology, this has been a real step up. Also, the number of people finding out that they weren't who they thought they were, and what a bunch of fabricators some parents have been - some who were half siblings, not full etc has been interesting.

Edited by Sailabee
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So if I filter out all the sword fighting and words I don't understand, and try to put this into simple terms, the genes in the drone are 100% genes of the queen, but only 50% of the queen's genes are in any one drone. (?). The 50% in a drone could be nearly all queen mother or all queen father but more likely some intermingled combination such that nearly every drone is unique.  So key thing I think I learnt was that all the drones could still be different, despite being the result of immaculate conception.

 

So, then explains how a queen can give all colour of drone because of the mix and match with the genes in each drone (?).

 

I guess if the genes in the queen are not exactly 50:50 queen mother and queen father this is another aspect of the pure breeding, but isn't itself the reason for the different coloured drones. (?). It is more the mix of genes that she does  have.

 

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At school I had 2 hives, with carniolan queens and all black drones. I caught a swarm from an italian hive down the gully and hived it below the tree where I caught it. About 20m from the other hives.. All golden drones. Within 2 days there were black drones in the italian hive and golden drones running around the carni hives.

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2 hours ago, ChrisM said:

So if I filter out all the sword fighting and words I don't understand, and try to put this into simple terms, the genes in the drone are 100% genes of the queen, but only 50% of the queen's genes are in any one drone. (?). The 50% in a drone could be nearly all queen mother or all queen father but more likely some intermingled combination such that nearly every drone is unique.  So key thing I think I learnt was that all the drones could still be different, despite being the result of immaculate conception.

 

So, then explains how a queen can give all colour of drone because of the mix and match with the genes in each drone (?).

 

I guess if the genes in the queen are not exactly 50:50 queen mother and queen father this is another aspect of the pure breeding, but isn't itself the reason for the different coloured drones. (?). It is more the mix of genes that she does  have.

 

Thank you Chris for you comments, especially the first sentence re sword fighting.  Like most people at this time of the year, working in the field, I am flammin' tired.

 

Would be v interested to hear David Yanke's comments on your post.   

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4 hours ago, Maggie James said:

 

Thank you Chris for you comments, especially the first sentence re sword fighting.  Like most people at this time of the year, working in the field, I am flammin' tired.

 

Would be v interested to hear David Yanke's comments on your post.   

Too flammmin' tired to respond!  If I got into a 'Sword Fight' over making a simple , basic statement on Inheritance, what  could happen if I responded to Chris's Post?

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14 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

Too flammmin' tired to respond!  If I got into a 'Sword Fight' over making a simple , basic statement 

Sometimes you have to switch off the device and go out the back paddock to axe split some firewood.. 

i will add.. doing that at this time of night can not only be rather dangerous but also attract unwanted attention 

Edited by Stoney
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6 hours ago, Stoney said:

Sometimes you have to switch off the device and go out the back paddock to axe split some firewood.. 

i will add.. doing that at this time of night can not only be rather dangerous but also attract unwanted attention 

Unfortunately nowadays, waving an axe at any time of the day or night, could attract unwanted attention!    I have just noticed that axe isn't in the computer's dictionary!  Axes have even been deleted from our vocabulary!  Maybe we are all becoming too super sensitive or is it an indication of how society reacts to events/comments it doesn't like.  

If anyone wants to purchase a Glen Moray Scotch Whisky Tin (yes just the tin - contents disposed of years ago), I have got one in very good nick for $10.  I am unable to post it on other websites because it involves whisky.  Yes, we are even in denial about whisky.  

Edited by Maggie James
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Sword fights are not needed. Repeatedly getting in someones face and saying "you're wrong you're wrong" but supplying no evidence is not necessary, and does not prove anything either. Just turns it into a sword fight.

 

All that's needed is to supply a reputable reference  to prove your case. Like I did. Should have been the end of the matter right there. 

 

 

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You are a stirrer Maggie.

 

However protecting a rep, and arguing vehemently, then doing some research and discovering that the other guy is correct, is tiresome, makes the person tired. At that point if they will not admit they had it wrong, they have to find an out. They will typically withdraw by making some remark like "too flaming tired to respond".

 

Lesson here is don't argue, supply a reference. 

 

And no need for you to make it harder than it is Maggie.

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