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22 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Thats also an option which most may take, but there is a lot of honey that the packers are not buying, so if thats the case then you have to be proactive and fine a solution for your self.

its tricky. do you take the risk of turning your honey you can sell into more honey you can't sell.

also just because its manuka does not mean it will sell. some of the selling issues is nothing to do with what honey it is.

 

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14 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

In one study using Read Only Tags on the  Virgins,

 

14 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

Virgins take on average 2 mating Flights. In one study using Read Only Tags on the  Virgins, the the average number of Mating flights was just over 2, the maximum was 6!  Flights of less than 5 minutes were considered Orientation flights.  Average Mating Flight time was between 10 and 30 minutes.  Latest research also shows that Virgins are mating with far more drones than previously thought.  It has shown that Virgins often  mate with 30 or more Drones, up to 50 sub-families have been found in a single colony- all this new fangled DNA  technology is turning a lot of what we use to believe on its' head.

 

Hi - What are the references for the studies please?  When I google "Read Only Tags on Virgins" I get an interesting array of topics!

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

 It has shown that Virgins often  mate with 30 or more Drones, up to 50 sub-families have been found in a single colony- all this new fangled DNA  technology is turning a lot of what we use to believe on its' head.

 

I am wondering about the effect of varroa on that. Thing is most of this research is from overseas where they have had varroa for longer than us. Way back before varroa they also did not have the technology we have now so much of the common wisdom was observational and therefore perhaps unreliable, fact is, we just don't really know what happened pre varroa.

Varroa has had an effect on drone sperm counts, both by the viruses that are now present in thousands of times the pre varroa levels, and the chemicals which we use to control varroa, all of which suppress sperm production.There is pretty much the same volume of fluid, but just the number of sperms within it is affected. So we don't know if a queen mating with 50 drones would be normal, pre varroa behaviour, or something they have to do now to be properly fertilized.

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Research may well have been done.  Mid Canty didn't get varroa until 2009; Southland and Otago later.  Australia doesn't have varroa and they do some good bee research.  

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1 hour ago, Maggie James said:

 

 

Hi - What are the references for the studies please?  When I google "Read Only Tags on Virgins" I get an interesting array of topics!

Hi Maggie, you can find it here- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592583/ , hopefully this link will not take you some place you do not want to go!

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

Hi Maggie, you can find it here- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592583/ , hopefully this link will not take you some place you do not want to go!

 

Lots of interesting things in this article.  How complicated was actioning regional laws?   

 

Are the contents of Australia hovering over us classed as cloud cover?  

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8 hours ago, David Yanke said:

Virgins take on average 2 mating Flights. In one study using Read Only Tags on the  Virgins, the the average number of Mating flights was just over 2, the maximum was 6!  Flights of less than 5 minutes were considered Orientation flights.  Average Mating Flight time was between 10 and 30 minutes.  Latest research also shows that Virgins are mating with far more drones than previously thought.  It has shown that Virgins often  mate with 30 or more Drones, up to 50 sub-families have been found in a single colony- all this new fangled DNA  technology is turning a lot of what we use to believe on its' head.

If a queen mates with black drones and yellow drones will her children be different colours .?

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6 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

If a queen mates with black drones and yellow drones will her children be different colours .?

Yes , the female children will be 

Edited by M4tt

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1 hour ago, M4tt said:

Yes , the female children will be 

I have seen some really black drones entering one of my hives.

I am wondering where they come from .

All the bees around here are yellow .

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1 minute ago, kaihoka said:

I have seen some really black drones entering one of my hives.

I am wondering where they come from .

All the bees around here are yellow .

Hell?  😳

 

Drones from any hive will enter any hive 

 

I wouldn’t worry 

 

Probably delivering mites 

Edited by M4tt
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Just now, M4tt said:

Hell? 😳

Do drones from other hives enter a hive thats not their own ?

 

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Just now, kaihoka said:

Do drones from other hives enter a hive thats not their own ?

 

Fly in, land , enter.

 

They are drones .  No one cares . They are welcomed by any hive . They are not deemed as a threat 

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3 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

Do drones from other hives enter a hive thats not their own ?

 

These dudes may also be carrying some baggage to kindly leave within your hive.. 

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2 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Fly in, land , enter.

 

They are drones .  No one cares . They are welcomed by any hive . They are not deemed as a threat 

I thought so .

I wonder how far away drones fly from .?

1 minute ago, Stoney said:

These dudes may also be carrying some baggage to kindly leave within your hive.. 

True .

The local guys  I  know of are very conscientious,  but their drones are yellow .

 

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11 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

I thought so.

 

So did I.

 

That's until i did pollen trapping, the traps had drone escapes to let drones out of the hives but they often could not figure out how to get back in. They would die in droves at the entrance despite there being another hive a couple of meters on each side they could have enetered. Kinda made me question the common wisdom they move around freely.

 

Something else. Back when I was breeding queens I used to have drone production hives with drone comb that could produce a large number of drones. Open those hives they were pumping with drones but the hives either side never had especially many.

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7 hours ago, Alastair said:

 

So did I.

 

That's until i did pollen trapping, the traps had drone escapes to let drones out of the hives but they often could not figure out how to get back in. They would die in droves at the entrance despite there being another hive a couple of meters on each side they could have enetered. Kinda made me question the common wisdom they move around freely.

 

Something else. Back when I was breeding queens I used to have drone production hives with drone comb that could produce a large number of drones. Open those hives they were pumping with drones but the hives either side never had especially many.

The way I understand it , is if they are near home, they will go home.

 

If they’ve been out for the day, for example, on a long haul trip and they get caught a bit short, they’ll pop in anywhere to refuel and are not turned away.

 

A queen that lays yellow drones can’t produce black drones so they’ve come in from somewhere else.

 

The above is a nice story that fits. I’m sure there are other reasons. 

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44 minutes ago, M4tt said:

A queen that lays yellow drones can’t produce black drones so they’ve come in from somewhere else.

 

Yes they can. The queen herself will most likely be a hybrid. If she gives a bit of her blackness to one of her unfertilised eggs it will be black. Same queen can also give a bit of her yellowness to an unfertilised egg and it will be yellow. There is variation among her offspring unless she is purebred.

 

You can prove this yourself when doing a drone brood varroa check, just look at the colours of the drone larvae you are pulling out. Assuming the hive is hybridised.

 

I too have wondered if maybe drones that get caught out somewhere find themselves a different hive. Maybe they do, same as drift by workers. However before i accept as gospel that it happens in major numbers more so than for workers, i would want to see some evidence and I've never seen any. I think it's just a good story that has been repeated enough to become "fact".

Edited by Alastair
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When I read that queens had mulitple matings in a drone zone I wondered how that would play out .

I read dogs can have multiple matings when on heat .

One of my hives has completely different coloured drones entering the hive .

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10 hours ago, kaihoka said:

I have seen some really black drones entering one of my hives.

I am wondering where they come from .

All the bees around here are yellow .

Obviously all the bees around you are not all yellow!  But, there could be another explanation, in  the past I have seen Yellow Queens that can produce jet black drones(no body colour), it is a mutation and it was in our yellow commercial stock- these drones are not dark like carnica or mellifera, they are, as I said, jet black. More likely though you are seeing drifting carnica or mellifera drones.

2 hours ago, Alastair said:

 

Yes they can. The queen herself will most likely be a hybrid. If she gives a bit of her blackness to one of her unfertilised eggs it will be black. Same queen can also give a bit of her yellowness to an unfertilised egg and it will be yellow. There is variation among her offspring unless she is purebred.

 

You can prove this yourself when doing a drone brood varroa check, just look at the colours of the drone larvae you are pulling out. Assuming the hive is hybridised.

 

I too have wondered if maybe drones that get caught out somewhere find themselves a different hive. Maybe they do, same as drift by workers. However before i accept as gospel that it happens in major numbers more so than for workers, i would want to see some evidence and I've never seen any. I think it's just a good story that has been repeated enough to become "fact".

Remember the uniqueness of Drones, they are haploid, having developed from an unfertilised egg, so all their genetics comes from the Queen only(nothing to do with drones she mates with), so the drones inherit only one of the 2 possible variations(alleles) of each of the Queens  genes. We produce a lot of  Hybrid Queens, crossing pretty straight carnica with pretty straight ligustica.  The resulting F1 Queens still look pretty yellow, probably  because of some dominance of the genes responsible for body colour, but they will produce drones that either yellow or dark in the 1:1 ratio that you would expect. When you go beyond F1, the drones are more mongrel with all sorts of variation from yellow to dark.

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48 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

Remember the uniqueness of Drones, they are haploid, having developed from an unfertilised egg, so all their genetics comes from the Queen only(

So its the queens dad  who determines colour .

Her mum was a later autumn queen , it is very calm then so her dad drone could have come from an apiary 10 klm away .

The local apiarys are all italian bees and the migrants strong italian supporters.

Some carniolans came in to the area about 5 yrs ago but they proved very unsuitable for the conditions and have been systematically bred out .

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2 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

 

Her mum was a later autumn queen , it is very calm then so her dad drone could have come from an apiary 10 klm away .

 

 

That distance is very doable if each flies towards towards the centre point, so each queen and drones only have to do about half the 10 klms or there abouts.

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1 hour ago, kaihoka said:

So its the queens dad  who determines colour .

Her mum was a later autumn queen , it is very calm then so her dad drone could have come from an apiary 10 klm away .

The local apiarys are all italian bees and the migrants strong italian supporters.

Some carniolans came in to the area about 5 yrs ago but they proved very unsuitable for the conditions and have been systematically bred out .

Queens and workers don't have proper dads, and Drones have no dad at all.  Queens and workers are diploid, they develop from fertilised eggs, like you and I, and almost all other animals.  They/we get half of our genteics from our Mother's egg, and half from the spermatozoa that fertilised it. Body colour, like every other trait, is determined equally by both parents.

 

Back to Drones not being proper Dads, being haploid, they are really just flying germ cells, which  have replicated  themselves 10 million times over in the spermatozoa that they produce.  Heaps of sperm, very little genetic variation.

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5 hours ago, Alastair said:

 

Yes they can. The queen herself will most likely be a hybrid. If she gives a bit of her blackness to one of her unfertilised eggs it will be black. Same queen can also give a bit of her yellowness to an unfertilised egg and it will be yellow. There is variation among her offspring unless she is purebred.

 

You can prove this yourself when doing a drone brood varroa check, just look at the colours of the drone larvae you are pulling out. Assuming the hive is hybridised.

 

I too have wondered if maybe drones that get caught out somewhere find themselves a different hive. Maybe they do, same as drift by workers. However before i accept as gospel that it happens in major numbers more so than for workers, i would want to see some evidence and I've never seen any. I think it's just a good story that has been repeated enough to become "fact".

I can rephrase what I said to be clearer 

 

It would be highly odd in a hive where a queen produces yellow drones to find a couple or so black ones that are from that queen . I can’t see how that would be possible 
 

 

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1 hour ago, M4tt said:

I can rephrase what I said to be clearer 

 

It would be highly odd in a hive where a queen produces yellow drones to find a couple or so black ones that are from that queen . I can’t see how that would be possible 
 

 

 

There are dominant and recessive genes, in humans, two brown eyed people can have a blue eyed child, but two blue eyed cannot have a brown eyed child, as brown is a dominant gene, and if it was present in either parent, they would have brown eyes - perhaps that also applies to bee colouring. 

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