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Jamo

Spray damage

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I think as knowledge increases as to what chemicals/conditions and application times are high risk , it wouldn’t be too difficult to draw up a best practice . Maybe something alone the lines of avoiding spraying gorse in full flower , unless a buffer zone free of hives can be assured  , or spray outside of bee o’clock . Heli operations fly in hives so they obviously have a vested interest in healthy hives , as do farmers/orchardists wanting pollination , not to mention beekeepers themselves , so it shouldn’t be too hard to get everyone on the same page , in theory . 

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1 hour ago, Jas said:

What I’m not sure about is whether the penetrant only causes trouble as direct contact , or if it can also cause harm to bees  as a coating on the plant . My thinking is that once the spray has started to dry on the plant it would pose less of a risk .  

  Part of the solution is communication , but the reality is hardly anyone knows if there’s bees on their place , let alone their neighbours now . I load helicopters a bit so get to see apiary sites from the air , and invariably there will be hives tucked away out of sight . Generally we do the majority of our spraying early morning while it’s calm , so as a result hopefully that helps reduce the risk to bees . At the end of the day , as beekeepers we need to assess the risks when placing hives . If there’s a big block of gorse/ scrub nearby , a tub of $4kg honey and a chat to the land owner about future spray plans could pay dividends later .

@Jas The major problem is that the spray tank adjuvant manufacturers have not to date down any ecotoxicological testing of their products. We know that organo silicone surfactants usually used with metsulfuron methyl and glyphosate herbicides to control gorse kills bees. But both regulators in NZ, the EPA and MPI do not want to know - they consider these products as 'safe' or 'inert' and are not prepared to ask the manufacturers to do this work.

If the product was labelled correctly that it will kill bees and to not spray during flowering we would see a drop in the number of incidents being reported.

Informed spray operators will do a lot better job if our regulators focused on the real risks.

Independent work by researchers has shown that these products are harmful, toxic to bees. See attached paper by C A Mullins et al.

Example; MPI is presently investigating how many beekeepers do not use the correct number of Bayvarol strips in their hive (they are concerned about resistance occurring) than they are in regulating spray tank adjuvants.

Mullin CA et al 2015 The formulation makes the honey bee poison.pdf

Edited by Don Mac
Adding uploaded file
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44 minutes ago, Jas said:

I think as knowledge increases as to what chemicals/conditions and application times are high risk , it wouldn’t be too difficult to draw up a best practice . Maybe something alone the lines of avoiding spraying gorse in full flower , unless a buffer zone free of hives can be assured  , or spray outside of bee o’clock . Heli operations fly in hives so they obviously have a vested interest in healthy hives , as do farmers/orchardists wanting pollination , not to mention beekeepers themselves , so it shouldn’t be too hard to get everyone on the same page , in theory . 

In my case they were spraying gorse, large area, I was informed it would be happening but the heli outfit weren’t sure as was weather dependant ... the call came in the night before. 

I had asked for sticker not to be used and was told it had to be. 

 

Now I could have shifted them all out (25 hives) 2 weeks earlier when I was told but didn’t as was told would be very early morning. The cocky told me they were still spraying in the afternoon. 

To be honest there’s not a huge difference in the bees that I’ve noticed. 

 

Do any bees survive to make it home to pack poisoned pollen into cells? 

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14 hours ago, yesbut said:

It's a declared noxious weed. If Authority wants to get heavy ..........we know all about it's good points.....fact remains it swallows grazing.

I think gorse swallows gazing land because it is left fallow , probably becauseit was unsuitable land for grazing in the beginning.

Sheep will eat young gorse shoots and gorse will not take over an area with stock .

Just because we have stuck houses on our good land I think is no excuse to go and wreck marginal land  better left in scrub

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On 25/11/2019 at 8:17 AM, Don Mac said:

Morning Folks

I always have breakfast before putting the computer on - it is much more relaxing way to eat and watch the sun come up.

 

@Jamo   - one question why do you need this information?  Have you had  bee kill?

Reason, I do not like trying to point at products with a shotgun.......if you have had a bee kill get the dead bees tested in a pesticide screen to identify the chemical first.

Then we can target the chemical with a rifle shot.

Please detail why you need this info.

2nd Question - Have you Read the Labels? There are two formulations of Movento insecticide and 3 formulations of Luna fungicide. Which one mate? 

I do have some clues but some growers have been known to do a deal and get some cheap product from another source.

 

Those 4 pesticides are all authorised for use on Kiwifruit. So refer to the Zespri spray programme and their guide for protecting pollinators at all times.

 

Movento 100SC by Bayer Crop Science is a systemic insecticide for the control of armoured scale in Kiwifruit.

Movento 150OD is sold as an insecticide for potatoes.

A really interesting product, as it is sold as an insecticide but is not classified as toxic to invertebrates (Class 9.4)

No label warnings for honey bees. But application is preflowering so risk is minimal - Label states clearly " the first at green-tip and the second pre-flowering."

Label is located here; https://www.cropscience.bayer.co.nz/products/insecticides/movento 100sc

 

Luna Privilege by Bayer Crop Science is a Fungicide for the control of Sclerotinia in Kiwifruit. There are 2 other Luna products, making three in total.

It has no warning statements concerning effects on pollinators and is not classified as toxic to honey bees (Class 9.4).

The Label states that application is recommended from 7 days before flowering until 80% of flowering is complete.

But Zespri's spray programme states that the grower should not apply after bud phase of the flowering cycle - pre flowering use only.
So it is applied during flowering which means it has some risk for honey bees during pollination, especially if used as a spray tank mixture. See Link below.

Label is located here; https://www.cropscience.bayer.co.nz/products/fungicides/luna privilege

 

Actigard is manufactured by Syngenta.

ACTIGARD is a plant activator that stimulates systemic acquired resistance, reducing the symptoms of Psa (Pseudomonas syringae pv. actinidiae) in Kiwifruit.

There is no data on toxicity to honey bees. It is not classified as Class 9.4.

There is a special application note for use when controlling PSA in Kiwifruit - see link below. It should be applied post harvest and not at this time of the year!

Label is located here; https://www.syngenta.co.nz/product/crop-protection/plant-activator/actigard

 

Prodigy is a systemic insecticide developed by DOW AgroSciences and now a product of Corteva. It is used for the control of leaf roller in Kiwifruit. And it is classified as 9.4A.

Initial data showed it was safe to honey bees, but sub lethal effects have since been researched in flowering almonds - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29361013

Be careful with honey bees if this product is applied is my personal advice.

But note the label  recommendation " Apply at pre-bloom or at late flowering followed by 2 further applications at 14 day intervals."  Do not apply during flowering is what it says to me.

Refer to  the Zespri Spray programme _ I do not have a copy of this seasons programme.

Label is located here; https://www.corteva.co.nz/products-and-solutions/crop-protection/prodigy.html

 

I am really surprised that there are still growers who wish to apply these products during flowering and pollination.

 

The other factor you should always ask information about is - what other products are in the spray tank.

Surfactants, penetrants, foliar nutrient products etc. etc.

 

@Jamo more information please

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.

Bees were put into orchard 4 days after spray went on. Orchardist told me that this cocktail is same as has been used in previous years and we haven't had issues in this location before. Usually bees do really well there as there is a large gully of Bush right next door.

Did not see significant amounts of dead bees outside but estimate that hive populations dropped from about 45 thousand to about 25 - 30 thousand.

Screenshot_20191126-091220.png

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1 hour ago, Jamo said:

Thanks for the info.

Bees were put into orchard 4 days after spray went on. Orchardist told me that this cocktail is same as has been used in previous years and we haven't had issues in this location before. Usually bees do really well there as there is a large gully of Bush right next door.

Did not see significant amounts of dead bees outside but estimate that hive populations dropped from about 45 thousand to about 25 - 30 thousand.

Screenshot_20191126-091220.png

Drop in bee population within kiwi orchards is normal. They hardly look better afterwards 

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12 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Jamesc, do you have to spray the whole property or just 10mtrs in from your boundry ? 

you should make them watch the doco about the chap on Banks Pen that left the gorse so naive could grow.

The legality is that we have to keep the gorse back off the boundary, plus any patches that are smaller than   xxxxx sq metres. The patches are'nt all that big, and off the cuff I can't remember the size , except that it's not big ...... but Ecan had a young man up here for the best part of the day riding around the hills GPSing the patches and handed us a control plan.

He did'nt need to . I know where all the patches are ..... but it all costs money ...right ?

Anyway, we bit the bullet and agent oranged the most important part that Ecan were'nt too worried about because it was so big, but really agravated  us, to put it mildly, because we kept loosing stock in the jungle.

And yes .... I visited Hinawai a few years ago .   It's a classic restoration story of letting nature take it's course. Stunning.

Up here we are a cold old gully, and have gullies that are sandwiched between native that  have been full of gorse for forty years ..... and still no native is showing.

 

9 hours ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Drop in bee population within kiwi orchards is normal. They hardly look better afterwards 

And we all thought you pollinators were riding the Gravy Train this year 😴

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15 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Up here we are a cold old gully, and have gullies that are sandwiched between native that  have been full of gorse for forty years ..... and still no native is showing

No big old tree pigeon fodder ?

Edited by yesbut

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21 hours ago, Jamo said:

Thanks for the info.

Bees were put into orchard 4 days after spray went on. Orchardist told me that this cocktail is same as has been used in previous years and we haven't had issues in this location before. Usually bees do really well there as there is a large gully of Bush right next door.

Did not see significant amounts of dead bees outside but estimate that hive populations dropped from about 45 thousand to about 25 - 30 thousand.

 

 

@Jamo, your comment about the population drop of bees in your hives prompted my memory about a fact about Movento.

Movento was approved by ERMA (now the EPA back in 2008) - see decision HSR07115 https://www.epa.govt.nz/database-search/hsno-application-register/view/HSR07115

It was widely used during flowering of Kiwifruit and beekeepers noted severe population drops of their hives. These were documented by Dr John McLean.

In 2012, the NBA Tech Committee applied for a reassessment of Movento. based on Bayer's application data.

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/FileAPI/hsno-ar/APP201469/8ec3b230b9/APP201469-APP201469-Application-Form-21.08.2012.pdf

The guts of the grounds for this reassessment application was this;

"The original ERMA approval (HSR007693) decision completely overlooked Bayer’s Terrestrial invertebrate ecotoxicity rating of 9.4B as detailed in application HSR07115.

“The difference between the Agency’s and the applicant’s assessment of reproductive/developmental toxicity is due to differing interpretations of the available data.  The applicant’s derivation of the 9.4B classification is unclear as the Agency based on formulation data on bees provided by the applicant”. (Application HSR07115)

The National Beekeepers Association Technical Committee (NBA TC) contends that for a systemic insecticide, the Agency’s interpretation was in serious error on the basis that while tests of the forager bees showed a high tolerance for Movento®, LD50 contact = >100ug ai/bee (p37 of 127 HSR07115) Bayer rightly reported (p. 38 of 127 HSR07115) “an almost total termination of brood development 4 days after the start of feeding”.  This means that a whole cohort of bee production is lost, i.e. 7 weeks later this failed brood should have been at the forager stage but they are simply not there to gather honey.  The Agency was in serious error to ignore this important information."

Our concern was that ERMA had made an incorrect risk analysis of effects on bees in the original approval - and that opinion still stands as the EPA approved our grounds for reassessment. Dr McLean gathered data In 2008 bee safety was determined by effects of the pesticide on adult bees, not brood. This showed a decline in beehive strength to about 40%  of what was in the hive at the start of pollination. We did not proceed with a push for the reassessment, because it was about 2013 when Zespri made a push for NO SPRAYING during FLOWERING on KIwifruit. Plus it could have cost the NBA a lot of money back then - taking on Bayer could have been a huge challenge.                                                                              Problem solved we thought then @Jamo came along and clearly you have experienced an orchardist spraying during flowering.

The hive losses you experienced are significant. @Jamo have you reported these hive losses to Zespri? They have active customers overseas who wish to see no harm to bees used for pollination of the fruit they buy. Have you reported this as a pollinator incident to the EPA?

The Apiculture NZ Science & Research Focus Group relies on accurate reports from beekeepers so that we can assist beekeepers. How widespread have Movento applications been during flowering this season? Has scale been a problem in Kiwifruit this season?  @Jamo you are at the coalface in your area, you need to know what is happening and noting it down.   We do not have any research funding, so have total reliance on accurate beekeeper reports for us to work on beekeeper concerns.  We can resurrect the EPA reassessment of Movento if use of this product has been widespread in orchards this season during flowering, but need accurate data and reporting from beekeepers.  We may need to talk to Zespri about a change in spraying policy - to permit more spraying during flowering. To do so requires more data from you the beekeeper.

Contact me by email if you have to Don MacLeod c/-      info@apinz.org.nz  and I will get back to you.

Hive management is all about measuring hive performance, monitoring the environment where your bees are and communication with the growers and others in the industry, including beekeepers. Doing nothing is a recipe for self imposed torture and eventual failure.

Pollinating kiwifruit is tough on hives, adding insecticides to the mixture makes a bees life a lot tougher. Some beekeepers swap out hives every 10 to 21 days to keep hive strength high. That is the first hives placed in the orchard are replaced with fresh hives - this reduces hive losses, spells hives from the effects of the orchard for honey gathering after pollination.   Speak to @Dennis Crowley  as he has a huge amount of experience in Kiwifruit pollination and is the go to man for Apiculture NZ re Zespri.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Don Mac said:

 

@Jamo, your comment about the population drop of bees in your hives prompted my memory about a fact about Movento.

Movento was approved by ERMA (now the EPA back in 2008) - see decision HSR07115 https://www.epa.govt.nz/database-search/hsno-application-register/view/HSR07115

It was widely used during flowering of Kiwifruit and beekeepers noted severe population drops of their hives. These were documented by Dr John McLean.

In 2012, the NBA Tech Committee applied for a reassessment of Movento. based on Bayer's application data.

https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/FileAPI/hsno-ar/APP201469/8ec3b230b9/APP201469-APP201469-Application-Form-21.08.2012.pdf

The guts of the grounds for this reassessment application was this;

"The original ERMA approval (HSR007693) decision completely overlooked Bayer’s Terrestrial invertebrate ecotoxicity rating of 9.4B as detailed in application HSR07115.

 

“The difference between the Agency’s and the applicant’s assessment of reproductive/developmental toxicity is due to differing interpretations of the available data.  The applicant’s derivation of the 9.4B classification is unclear as the Agency based on formulation data on bees provided by the applicant”. (Application HSR07115)

 

The National Beekeepers Association Technical Committee (NBA TC) contends that for a systemic insecticide, the Agency’s interpretation was in serious error on the basis that while tests of the forager bees showed a high tolerance for Movento®, LD50 contact = >100ug ai/bee (p37 of 127 HSR07115) Bayer rightly reported (p. 38 of 127 HSR07115) “an almost total termination of brood development 4 days after the start of feeding”.  This means that a whole cohort of bee production is lost, i.e. 7 weeks later this failed brood should have been at the forager stage but they are simply not there to gather honey.  The Agency was in serious error to ignore this important information."

 

 

Our concern was that ERMA had made an incorrect risk analysis of effects on bees in the original approval - and that opinion still stands as the EPA approved our grounds for reassessment. Dr McLean gathered data In 2008 bee safety was determined by effects of the pesticide on adult bees, not brood. This showed a decline in beehive strength to about 40%  of what was in the hive at the start of pollination. We did not proceed with a push for the reassessment, because it was about 2013 when Zespri made a push for NO SPRAYING during FLOWERING on KIwifruit. Plus it could have cost the NBA a lot of money back then - taking on Bayer could have been a huge challenge.                                                                              Problem solved we thought then @Jamo came along and clearly you have experienced an orchardist spraying during flowering.

The hive losses you experienced are significant. @Jamo have you reported these hive losses to Zespri? They have active customers overseas who wish to see no harm to bees used for pollination of the fruit they buy. Have you reported this as a pollinator incident to the EPA?

The Apiculture NZ Science & Research Focus Group relies on accurate reports from beekeepers so that we can assist beekeepers. How widespread have Movento applications been during flowering this season? Has scale been a problem in Kiwifruit this season?  @Jamo you are at the coalface in your area, you need to know what is happening and noting it down.   We do not have any research funding, so have total reliance on accurate beekeeper reports for us to work on beekeeper concerns.  We can resurrect the EPA reassessment of Movento if use of this product has been widespread in orchards this season during flowering, but need accurate data and reporting from beekeepers.  We may need to talk to Zespri about a change in spraying policy - to permit more spraying during flowering. To do so requires more data from you the beekeeper.

Contact me by email if you have to Don MacLeod c/-      info@apinz.org.nz  and I will get back to you.

Hive management is all about measuring hive performance, monitoring the environment where your bees are and communication with the growers and others in the industry, including beekeepers. Doing nothing is a recipe for self imposed torture and eventual failure.

Pollinating kiwifruit is tough on hives, adding insecticides to the mixture makes a bees life a lot tougher. Some beekeepers swap out hives every 10 to 21 days to keep hive strength high. That is the first hives placed in the orchard are replaced with fresh hives - this reduces hive losses, spells hives from the effects of the orchard for honey gathering after pollination.   Speak to @Dennis Crowley  as he has a huge amount of experience in Kiwifruit pollination and is the go to man for Apiculture NZ re Zespri.

 

 

Don I’m not sure this was sprayed “during flowering”. Jamo said the bees went in 4 days after application - which suggests pre-flower application.  Some clarification would be good.

 

remember the reduction in bees could just have easily been whatever the neighbour was up to, or whatever the guy over the road sprayed. We’ve pollinated kiwifruit for several years around the pre-flower use of these products and I haven't seen an issue.

 

of course if they were indeed applied on open flowers, that would be a different issue.

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Easiest way is to monitor the Spray Notice Board when entering. I generally glance at these, and overall not much spraying mid pollination. Either end is different. Also look at the neighbours Boards. I stopped a guy spraying a mix which included Prodigy. Supposed to be Pre Flowering, but early Green males open and bees present- my bee avos in same orchard- The driver and I were friendly enough. And he came back to do a early morning spray. The spray contractors are only as good as the orchard managers. I always clarify the orchadist position on spraying prior. A No spray attitude is usually given but that is a very flexible position.

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Orchard was sprayed 4 days prior to hives going in. Orchardist has said that what he did was same as other years and I don't remember a problem in that orchard before. Could quite easily have been an avo guy thinking that as soon as his bees were gone he was free to spray even though he may have still had 10 % flower open. I think they are still allowed to use lawsban.

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