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The Oxalic Staple Info Processing Thread


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7 minutes ago, Christi An said:

What is becoming more and more common in Germany by the way are biotechnological methods. Especially in Summer after the honey harvest or 2 weeks before its end you can remove all capped brood and either make a lot of nucs or simly melt all frames (and kill the bees and most mites). Then you do 1 or 2 OA treatments (spray or vape) and thats your mite problem sorted. unless you have reinfestation in late autumn. The hives will quickly bounce back and generally overwinter very well. Also its a good chance to get any old comb out of the hives (old comb and the pollen stored there might be contaminated with pesticides). if you make nucs out of the capped brood you theoretically could double your hive numbers every year (imagine doing that while hives where ridiculously expensive a couple of years ago). If they raise their own emergency queen (or recieve a cell) there will be a window of a few days where they have no capped brood. thats when you should treat them. Again likely be waaaay to labour intense for you!

 

 

If you make a nuc, then you need to treat the nuc, so you may as well just treat the hive (IMO).

 

Also, if you take a standard hive in late Summer and remove three frames of brood / four frames of bees you weaken the hive significantly, so now you have a weak hive that needs to get through Winter, and is behind in Spring, and a nuc to get through Winter.  

 

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Cheers @Christi An good bit of info 

We have done it all. Got screened floors, regular testing, do mid Winter ox dribble. We used to flash treatment with formic, 60 ml onto 3 layer paper towel. With inconsistent results. End up with apairy with wildly varying mite loads. 

The synthetic gives us a better result overall. 

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1 minute ago, CraBee said:

 

If you make a nuc, then you need to treat the nuc, so you may as well just treat the hive (IMO).

 

Also, if you take a standard hive in late Summer and remove three frames of brood / four frames of bees you weaken the hive significantly, so now you have a weak hive that needs to get through Winter, and is behind in Spring, and a nuc to get through Winter.  

 

 

no... that is exactly the point... ALL brood is removed... the hives are weakened but bounce back very quickly and go into winter as very strong hives... i personally know a few people that do this regularly and swear by it! I myself used this method with great success... those hives were my strongest before winter.

Also you end up with one healthy hive on fresh comb and another (most often) healthy hive with a young queen, that you could either sell (ok pointless in the current situation) or combine with the other hive if you fancy an early honey harvest.

2 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Cheers @Christi An good bit of info 

We have done it all. Got screened floors, regular testing, do mid Winter ox dribble. We used to flash treatment with formic, 60 ml onto 3 layer paper towel. With inconsistent results. End up with apairy with wildly varying mite loads. 

The synthetic gives us a better result overall. 

 

most welcome!

 

yeah pretty sure synthetics work best. I never used them though and dont know anything about them. as far as i understand resistant mites MIGHT become an issue in the future but also customers MIGHT demand honey in the future that was organically produced without the use of any pesticides ? What about residues in wax and honey? (yeah im sure you test it and its fine!) No pros without cons...

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25 minutes ago, Christi An said:

 

no... that is exactly the point... ALL brood is removed... the hives are weakened but bounce back very quickly and go into winter as very strong hives... i personally know a few people that do this regularly and swear by it! I myself used this method with great success... those hives were my strongest before winter.

Also you end up with one healthy hive on fresh comb and another (most often) healthy hive with a young queen, that you could either sell (ok pointless in the current situation) or combine with the other hive if you fancy an early honey harvest.

 

 

 

Are you saying you don't treat the hive once the brood is removed?  Because there are still plenty of phoretic mites.

 

With the nuc, you end up with all the brood, and most of the mites, and a unit/nuc/bee numbers that are way smaller than a hive - and the nuc has to cope with all those mites  (In my experience...). 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CraBee said:

 

Are you saying you don't treat the hive once the brood is removed?  Because there are still plenty of phoretic mites.

 

With the nuc, you end up with all the brood, and most of the mites, and a unit/nuc/bee numbers that are way smaller than a hive - and the nuc has to cope with all those mites  (In my experience...). 

 

 

 

no of course both hives will be treated. the one with the removed brood a day after all the brood is removed, the nuc (provided you actually create it) after all capped brood has been hatched. If the mite load was VERY high you actually might want to consider to kill the capped brood anyways as it will be full of viruses and diseased bees. In this case you could see this procedure as a kind of emergency procedure.

 

by the way another treatment technique just came to my mind: As far as i know in southern europe (italy) is is not uncommon to cage the queen for 4 weeks and thus artificially create a time without any capped brood, as the warm climate there does not make the bees stop from rearing it. No experience with that method but might bi a hint to do some research if anybody is interested. I personally think that having to look for the queen in every hive will be quite time consuming though.

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2 hours ago, Christi An said:

I just cant stand the way certain people handle any criticism and questions towards it.

Mate.
There are lots of Beeks on this Forum who have met me and I very much doubt that any of them consider me to be a difficult or overly confrontational  sort of individual.
Life has taught me that often the faults we see in others are actually the same faults we see in our selves.

This is why such faults can be intolerable.

As it happens Im substantially German so can understand your position.

 

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11 minutes ago, Christi An said:

 

no of course both hives will be treated. the one with the removed brood a day after all the brood is removed, the nuc (provided you actually create it) after all capped brood has been hatched. If the mite load was VERY high you actually might want to consider to kill the capped brood anyways as it will be full of viruses and diseased bees. In this case you could see this procedure as a kind of emergency procedure.

 

by the way another treatment technique just came to my mind: As far as i know in southern europe (italy) is is not uncommon to cage the queen for 4 weeks and thus artificially create a time without any capped brood, as the warm climate there does not make the bees stop from rearing it. No experience with that method but might bi a hint to do some research if anybody is interested. I personally think that having to look for the queen in every hive will be quite time consuming though.

 

The thing with that is keeping the Queen alive in the cage, they seem to have a habit of dying even when put back in their original nuc/hive.  I think there needs to be a flow or the colony needs to be fed so the Queen is fed.

 

Also even when in the cage the bees sense something is wrong and start creating Queen cells...

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Mate.
There are lots of Beeks on this Forum who have met me and I very much doubt that any of them consider me to be a difficult or overly confrontational  sort of individual.
Life has taught me that often the faults we see in others are actually the same faults we see in our selves.

This is why such faults can be intolerable.

As it happens Im substantially German so can understand your position.

 

 

I dont dare to judge your personality by how you write in this forum. And believe it or not i actually can be a nice guy myself occasionally 🙂  Rest assured that when engaging with you in threads I will be honest/straight about things i agree and disagree with. Oh and by the way... im Austrian 🙂

 

Just now, CraBee said:

 

The thing with that is keeping the Queen alive in the cage, they seem to have a habit of dying even when put back in their original nuc/hive.  I think there needs to be a flow or the colony needs to be fed so the Queen is fed.

 

Also even when in the cage the bees sense something is wrong and start creating Queen cells...

 

 

 

yes that is what i thought as well, although some italian beekeepers (also commercials) still seem to use it to great success. I dont know why it does work for them though.

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26 minutes ago, Christi An said:

 

no of course both hives will be treated. the one with the removed brood a day after all the brood is removed, the nuc (provided you actually create it) after all capped brood has been hatched. If the mite load was VERY high you actually might want to consider to kill the capped brood anyways as it will be full of viruses and diseased bees. In this case you could see this procedure as a kind of emergency procedure.

 

by the way another treatment technique just came to my mind: As far as i know in southern europe (italy) is is not uncommon to cage the queen for 4 weeks and thus artificially create a time without any capped brood, as the warm climate there does not make the bees stop from rearing it. No experience with that method but might bi a hint to do some research if anybody is interested. I personally think that having to look for the queen in every hive will be quite time consuming though.

I will try that next season in the middle of a flow and will post the results on here.I made my splits up right in the middle of the kamahi flow so no brood for 1 month,But most of my hives are amm so no brood in the middle of winter.

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Philbee, and others. So what's the OA dosage amount per FD box? The staples summary pdf that I printed out (updated 30/12/18) mentions "Randy Oliver found that 18g of OA per box...worked best". Two paragraphs down from this it mentions "Staples contains 20g of a 40% OA solution, the box then contains 20×4×0.4 grams of OA, or 32g."

So what is the dose, 18g or 32g per FD box?

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13 minutes ago, StephenP said:

Randy Oliver found that 18g of OA per box...worked best"

Do not use this as a quoted best practice because it is not 

This number is the result of the physical characteristics of a certain carrier medium.

This info is searchable via Randy Olivers site 

 

First line edit

 

...because it is not intended as a best practice claim...

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23 minutes ago, StephenP said:

Philbee, and others. So what's the OA dosage amount per FD box? The staples summary pdf that I printed out (updated 30/12/18) mentions "Randy Oliver found that 18g of OA per box...worked best". Two paragraphs down from this it mentions "Staples contains 20g of a 40% OA solution, the box then contains 20×4×0.4 grams of OA, or 32g."

So what is the dose, 18g or 32g per FD box?

I’m going to suggest that the dose rate is more importantly matched to the amount of brood in a box, not bees . 

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1 minute ago, M4tt said:

I’m going to suggest that the dose rate is more importantly matched to the amount of brood in a box, not bees . 

Has anyone noticed fewer bees looking after more Healthy Brood?

 

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4 minutes ago, M4tt said:

I’m going to suggest that the dose rate is more importantly matched to the amount of brood in a box, not bees . 

 

Why Matt? OA does not act on the brood it only acts on the phoretic mites.

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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

 

 

Why Matt? OA does not act on the brood it only acts on the phoretic mites.

It’s a theory at this stage that I’m keen to play with .

 

I think my hives are at a point where they haven’t been infested with mites over summer , so I’m starting with healthier hives , albeit , I’m still a month away from treating , so that may change .

 

With that in mind, if I don’t have mites infesting bees, I shouldn’t need to come down so heavy handed. There is anecdotal evidence that a full dose of staples can kill bees in large numbers, for reasons yet unconfirmed. We also know staples in brood can sometimes affect the laying pattern of the queen underneath them .

 

In a months time, I will pull out my Queen Excluders and let the queens free range over 4 X 3/4 boxes . At the same time I will sugar shake , AFB check , and  place staples around the outside of the brood , in a conservative way, instead of 4 to 5 staples per box through the middle of the brood. 
 

I see this new approach as a maintenance type of preventative treatment where I am protecting the brood from varroa invasion , rather than killing varroa on the way out after bee emergence .

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Do not use this as a quoted best practice because it is not 

This number is the result of the physical characteristics of a certain carrier medium.

This info is searchable via Randy Olivers site 

 

First line edit

 

...because it is not intended as a best practice claim...

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

I've made up a very small amount OA (160g)/GL (240g) mixture today, at 40%OA. Soaked 16 430mm long staples. Intend to be placing 4 in each box (2 hives with double brood boxes) so should give 32g per box. Of course that's assuming the box is full of brood.

I've done a bit of research and this is my first attempt so just checking.

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23 minutes ago, StephenP said:

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

I've made up a very small amount OA (160g)/GL (240g) mixture today, at 40%OA. Soaked 16 430mm long staples. Intend to be placing 4 in each box (2 hives with double brood boxes) so should give 32g per box. Of course that's assuming the box is full of brood.

I've done a bit of research and this is my first attempt so just checking.

Could someone clarify the maths, on this, as I'm hopeless,

 but isn't this ratio  more like 60- 70% OA

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51 minutes ago, StephenP said:

Assuming the box is full of brood

We’ve always treated per box of bees , as you first suggested .

 

I’m suggesting that may not quite be correct in ongoing management of hives with staples .

 

Just throwing it out there to provoke thought .....

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41 minutes ago, Bee Good said:

Could someone clarify the maths, on this, as I'm hopeless,

 but isn't this ratio  more like 60- 70% OA

No, Stephen figures are correct

160 + 240 = 400

400 x 40%= 160  so 40% OA

 

according to calcalator

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1 hour ago, StephenP said:

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

I've made up a very small amount OA (160g)/GL (240g) mixture today, at 40%OA. Soaked 16 430mm long staples. Intend to be placing 4 in each box (2 hives with double brood boxes) so should give 32g per box. Of course that's assuming the box is full of brood.

I've done a bit of research and this is my first attempt so just checking.

Thats 15g OA per box

See how it goes, take notes, do before and after mite counts, note hive history and general appearance and strength compared to others at the site.
Weigh your finished laminates to ensure conformity to your design parameters.

treat more than one hive at a time.
 

 

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2 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Weighing would only be useful if first drying off absorbed water. Which in some of my staples has been more than just a few grams.

I might be more ignorant than I think, but how do your staples get wet ? Is this rain/humidity between making the staples and placing them ?

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11 minutes ago, yesbut said:

I might be more ignorant than I think, but how do your staples get wet ? Is this rain/humidity between making the staples and placing them ?

Lol

I doubt you are ignorant Pink Cat.

Its amazing how well a hive can protect itself from the weather.
Early  this spring during the rain I found a tall hive (overwintered with 3 boxes on a single brood with excluder) that had fallen over leaving just the single box with excluder still upright.
It probably received 25mm of rain on the open box yet the Bees were fine

They form a sort of roof of their own.

 

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1 hour ago, Alastair said:

Weighing would only be useful if first drying off absorbed water. Which in some of my staples has been more than just a few grams.

 

Glycerol is hydroscopic, so I would think that in making them at this time of the year - particularly where there is high humidity, they could indeed absorb more water.

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