The Oxalic Staple Info Processing Thread

[Alastair 8,474]

I have realised something about my hives that may be different to a lot of other peoples, nearly all my boxes are TanE treated, so wondering if that could have something to do with my poor results with staples.

 

So who is using staples and also has TanE treated boxes, what were your results?

 

If someone has TanE but also had no problem with staples, we could rule that out.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Alastair

[frazzledfozzle 7,422]

Alastair we use regular boxes and we had ALOT of winter loss for the first time ever also dwindled hives down to 2-3 frames of bees. 
Without asking around I know personally of two other beekeepers that had the same happen while using oxalic staples over winter.

 

But I also personally know of other beekeepers who experienced the same things who have never used staples so I’m not sure what to make of it all.

 

One thing I noticed in early spring was how awfully wet the hives were inside So wet it really stood out but maybe that was because the hives had dwindled so much they couldn’t keep the space warm.

 

No mites to be seen but we suffered a huge loss.

We needed to downsize anyway so apart from the shock of it it hasn’t been a bad thing for us but it’s made me very nervous about using staples again even though I think it must be more/other than staples because many beekeepers are using them and having good results.

[Jamo 512]

1 hour ago, Alastair said:

I have realised something about my hives that may be different to a lot of other peoples, nearly all my boxes are TanE treated, so wondering if that could have something to do with my poor results with staples.

 

So who is using staples and also has TanE treated boxes, what were your results?

 

If someone has TanE but also had no problem with staples, we could rule that out.

Most of our boxes are tan e. We haven't observed negative effects with ox staples which for us have been mostly used as a summer mid season treatment. Always used Dry.

This is one of my drying racks. I understand there are other ways to get dry staples but these work for me at the moment.

[Gino de Graaf 982]

1 hour ago, frazzledfozzle said:

Alastair we use regular boxes and we had ALOT of winter loss for the first time ever also dwindled hives down to 2-3 frames of bees. 
Without asking around I know personally of two other beekeepers that had the same happen while using oxalic staples over winter.

 

But I also personally know of other beekeepers who experienced the same things who have never used staples so I’m not sure what to make of it all.

 

One thing I noticed in early spring was how awfully wet the hives were inside So wet it really stood out but maybe that was because the hives had dwindled so much they couldn’t keep the space warm

Probably lack of bees, too much space, and more damp. Wetter tapes.

Most of mine are Tan E. 

Not sure, is timing a factor? 

I put ox tapes in during late summer Autumn. And early spring. Both times a bee loss and dwindling colony. 

Probably too many put in, 6 or so over 2 fulldepth broods. 

Tapes well dried before hand. Not wet.

The possible acid interference with queen pheromones could have been relevant to very poor queen matings during requeening in March. And possibly the higher rate of supercedure.

Is mid summer a better time? Bees get checked but have time to bounce back. 

[Alastair 8,474]

Hmm...

 

So one person does not have TanE but had losses. One person does have TanE but did not have losses. One person has TanE but had dwindling and losses.

 

About as random as it gets.

 

Not the clear cut result I hoped for but good to know at least. 

.

EDIT - cos i know this will get merged

 

Second thoughts maybe the randomness is a good thing. Because it may indicate that TanE is not a factor so therefore those like myself with TanE need not worry on that score at least. 

 

Still welcome any further input on it though!

[kaihoka 2,936]

interesting about what fraz said about wet hives.

maybe the strips absorb a lot of moisture from the strips and keep the hive damp.

because i live in such a humid atmosphere near water and bush i am slightly neurotic about keeping my hives warm and dry over winter.

by increasing bee to box ratio and correct siting of hives.

[Christi An 243]

based on what i know i do think that moisture would be a problem.

 

the sole purpose of any oa treatment is to distribute tiny and DRY oa crystals everywhere within the hive so the mites will walk over it which kills them.

 

bees arent harmed by dry oa crystals, however it is very harmful for them if they either ingest it or if their exoskeleton is touched by oxalic acid solution (thats one of the reasons why dribbling is way more harmful than vaping)

 

so if there was excess moisture maybe those rags became moist?

 

a possible solution would be to improve the hive design by adding insulation under the hive mat and get a meshed or at least ventilated bottom board (which has many advantages anyway)

[Gino de Graaf 982]

12 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

interesting about what fraz said about wet hives.

maybe the strips absorb a lot of moisture from the strips and keep the hive damp.

because i live in such a humid atmosphere near water and bush i am slightly neurotic about keeping my hives warm and dry over winter.

by increasing bee to box ratio and correct siting of hives.

Still leaves me confused why my hives suffered during late summer. Combination of, Too late maybe, higher mite counts, a strong Willow dew flow shutting down brood rearing...

The hives that got ox strips in Spring, during G3 pollination October, really lost bees and I pulled them out after a week. 

Again, possible combination of things. 

And the poor matings.   

Did the successful beeks get presoaked ones? From Phill. Is it a preparation issue. 

@Christi An I hardly notice bee issues using dribbling method. Maybe a handful of dead ones. 

[Christi An 243]

oh and by the way.

 

a german experimenting with oa rags in autumn, had them just sitting on the top bars and put a piece of candy on top of them, effectively promoting more bees to walk over them which greatly increased efficiency, 

1 minute ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Still leaves me confused why my hives suffered during late summer. Combination of, Too late maybe, higher mite counts, a strong Willow dew flow shutting down brood rearing...

The hives that got ox strips in Spring, during G3 pollination October, really lost bees and I pulled them out after a week. 

Again, possible combination of things. 

And the poor matings.   

Did the successful beeks get presoaked ones? From Phill. Is it a preparation issue. 

@Christi An I hardly notice bee issues using dribbling method. Maybe a handful of dead ones. 

 

thats a lot of maybes and unknowns...

 

as far as im concerned any considerations without mite wash or sticky board counts can be ignored.

 

as for issues, just because you dont see them they are not there. And if those issues would be severe enough for anybody picking them up depends on the circumstances.

 

one dribble in summer or autumn will likely not make a difference. multiple dribbles during a very harsh winter climate however will. rest assured of that.

[Gino de Graaf 982]

I did do mite counts before. Some mites, but nothing huge. And varied numbers, but all took a dive. Interesting about the candy.

[Stoney 1,544]

Alistair a couple of points to note, your testing of bees,  all be it not exactly as instructed, showed high nasties, also in your words staples were used “the wetter the better” and “straight through the brood, no pussy footing round the edge”... 

also very little forage entering the hive during treatment are all fairly large clues I think. 

Really wish I had the magic  reason  to put the finger on but honestly I don’t think there is only one. 

I think it’s a combination of factors. 

I definitely think this type of treatment is better early spring or late summer than over winter and not the first time I’ve said that.

 

if it doesn’t work for anyone for whatever reason why not just stick with synthetic treatments that do the job for you? 

 

[Alastair 8,474]

31 minutes ago, Stoney said:

if it doesn’t work for anyone for whatever reason why not just stick with synthetic treatments that do the job for you? 

 

Cost. Which now my income is rather meagre, is an issue. I'm also a curious fellow, a problem solver by nature. I was given a brain, why not put it to use. Non curious  / problem solver type people are unlikely to make it in beekeeping anyhow.

 

31 minutes ago, Stoney said:

Alistair a couple of points to note, your testing of bees,  all be it not exactly as instructed, showed high nasties, also in your words staples were used “the wetter the better” and “straight through the brood, no pussy footing round the edge”... 

 

I think those cherry picked phrases would better show my intent when making them, if the whole context was shown. In reality, the majority of my hives were treated with dry strips, and since your own very good pictorial about how you place the strips i did similar. Although it should not be an issue based on the pics Phil has posted of strips straight through the middle.

 

31 minutes ago, Stoney said:

also very little forage entering the hive during treatment are all fairly large clues I think. 

 

Possible although there has been mixed feed back from others on that. I have noticed in my own hives that where there has been a flow, or once a flow has started, the negative effects have been reduced. But others have said it is a non issue.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Alastair

[ChrisM 1,227]

41 minutes ago, Alastair said:

I'm also a curious fellow, a problem solver by nature. I was given a brain, why not put it to use. Non curious  / problem solver type people are unlikely to make it in beekeeping anyhow.

 

sounds right. But in my experience as soon as you think out loud, then people get a bit uncomfortable about what you might find and the next thing is that you're being told that you are over thinking the whole thing if they are too lazy to actually answer. So, in the end, it is all in the eye of the beholder.

On the other hand my experience of the OAG tapes is 100% fantastic and your experience with the OAG really puzzles me. 

It would be good for us all to understand what's gone on.

[nikki watts 868]

 

I noticed excess moisture in some of my failures, and a rotten egg kind of smell.  

 

The hives went into winter 2 x3/4 boxes with good stores, were fed syrup from August onward and came out 3-4 frames with queens laying tiny amounts of brood in the corners away from the staples and the stores. 

i have left some of the dwindlers to see if they catch up ....most haven’t but the odd one has. 

Yet Hives in the same apiaries that were treated and fed exactly the same are bringing honey in and doing well. 

I wonder about old queens too, A lot of my dwindlers were  older girls yet when I’ve requeened they still haven’t really improved and are not storing any honey even with the flow on. 

 

[Guest]

Hello Nikki.

I used wooden boxes not  treated but painted inside, I think, and ,come August, i would notice them down to 4 frames of bees max,  really wet with big slugs and mould inside with  mite counts around 8 per 250 bees .  This was on my apivar Bayoural regime.   Only by careful syrup feeding I believe I got the hive thru to summer. So i switched to  compressed foam boxes and what a difference in that while they got down to 4 and 5 frames the hive was dry and smelt good etc . About the same time i switched to Ox staples after using oxi dribble for a year. I did notice dead bees shortly after using ox staples but only from 1 hive not the other 2.. That hive stayed slow and low over winter in year 2 but has come away well now. I like the staples at say 45 cents compared to nearly $5 for pesticides and so far i like the result.

[nikki watts 868]

I like the staples too but there is obviously a lot more to learn about how environmental factors affect the outcome.

 

[Alastair 8,474]

7 hours ago, nikki watts said:

I noticed excess moisture in some of my failures, and a rotten egg kind of smell.  

 

Rotten egg smell is sometimes consistent with anaerobic bacteria, which can be when things are pretty wet and nasty.

 

A lot of my sites are pretty wet in winter. Never really mattered in the past but perhaps it's an issue with OA.

On 18/12/2019 at 5:58 PM, Carol2 said:

So i switched to  compressed foam boxes and what a difference in that while they got down to 4 and 5 frames the hive was dry and smelt good etc .

 

That's interesting Carol. Could we see a picture of your hives?

Edited December 18, 2019 by Alastair

[Philbee 4,672]

On 18/12/2019 at 7:46 PM, nikki watts said:

I like the staples too but there is obviously a lot more to learn about how environmental factors affect the outcome.

 

There is a large ongoing trial being conducted across a range of environments from medium to very high rainfall.
So far that trial has not indicated any effects that can be attributed to weather.
The most significant factor to date has been related to a sites proximity to other sites that appear to be carrying high mite loads.

 

and its possible that not all mites are created equal

 

[nikki watts 868]

14 minutes ago, Philbee said:

The most significant factor to date has been related to a sites proximity to other sites that appear to be carrying high mite loads.

 

and its possible that not all mites are created equal

 

Thanks. Hmmm, I think there’s something in that. my worst site is the one closest to an absentee commercial Beek. 

[Guest]

"That's interesting Carol. Could we see a picture of your hives"?

. Well, it took me 2 years to learn how to log in here so in regard to photos I will get my grandchildren to help.  However my hives are 100% standard paradise bee box hives (2 of them )with $2 plastic sheet for crown boards and i have found them miles dryer in our wet winters)  and 1 wooden hive because I don't have enough Paradise bee boxes. The wood hive is quite ok but I don't like it  in winter as much as the others. 

[tommy dave 1,163]

On 18/12/2019 at 5:58 PM, Carol2 said:

Hello Nikki.

I used wooden boxes not  treated but painted inside, I think, a

painted inside isn't that common - what sort of paint are you using:? do you think it's giving good results?

 

On 18/12/2019 at 5:58 PM, Carol2 said:

 I like the staples at say 45 cents compared to nearly $5 for pesticides and so far i like the result.

not sure how you're calling one treatment a pesticide and one not. much of a muchness on that front

On 18/12/2019 at 5:58 PM, Carol2 said:

 ,come August, i would notice them down to 4 frames of bees max,  really wet with big slugs and mould inside

suspect this is nothing to do with treatment and everything to do with your beekeeping...

[Alastair 8,474]

LOL Carol you are like me a few years ago. 

 

If you can transfer a pic to your computer, then when you make a post you can see the choose files button at the bottom. Click on that then select your pic and double click on it and it will appear in your post.

 

But, maybe something those grandchildren can help with. 

[Philbee 4,672]

2 hours ago, nikki watts said:

Thanks. Hmmm, I think there’s something in that. my worst site is the one closest to an absentee commercial Beek. 

Another point to consider is feral Swarm habitat.
I know very little about it but when I get an outlier Hive I look around and ask the Question,
Is this an area that might hold significant numbers of feral swarms.
 

[Stoney 1,544]

8 hours ago, Philbee said:

Another point to consider is feral Swarm habitat.
I know very little about it but when I get an outlier Hive I look around and ask the Question,
Is this an area that might hold significant numbers of feral swarms.
 

Do  you think a thermal would see the heat signature of swarms living in the bush? 

 

We have work sites targeting willow areas for spring build up and there’s been many times over the yrs when you stand up and scratch your head while looking out into the tangled mess of broken and hollow willows asking yourself... I wonder where this colony has gone...? 

Ive only ever cut 2 ferals out of the willows.. actually one I cut out the other I petrolled and expanding foam treated. 

[Trevor Gillbanks 6,771]

46 minutes ago, Stoney said:

8 hours ago, Philbee said:

 

Do  you think a thermal would see the heat signature of swarms living in the bush

Interesting thought. It would need to be a very high quality unit to cover an acceptable area. It would be very expensive.