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Alastair

The Oxalic Staple Info Processing Thread

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Hmm well looks like we might be able to rule the flow / no flow thing out. Which is a good thing for me as I treat when no flow. Would still be good to hear from a few more people on that though.

 

Dansar did you remove the spring treatment strips at 4 weeks and replace as i did, or just leave them in?

 

Any spotty brood?

 

 

Edited by Alastair
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1 hour ago, Alastair said:

Hmm well looks like we might be able to rule the flow / no flow thing out. Which is a good thing for me as I treat when no flow. Would still be good to hear from a few more people on that though.

 

Dansar did you remove the spring treatment strips at 4 weeks and replace as i did, or just leave them in?

 

Any spotty brood?

 

 

No I left them in. I did some other hives with Apivar at the same time as these hives are teaching hives too. I removed all treatments at 10 weeks. The Oxalic strips were moved in hives that required it and I replaced any 50% + removed strips with fresh ones.

The only hives I noticed with spotty brood were ones that I should have replaced the queens in last season ie 2 year old queens.

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5 minutes ago, dansar said:

No I left them in. 

 

Interesting... with the replacement i did, I'm thinking i may have ended up just putting to much acid into the hives.

Edited by Alastair
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I've been using the gib tape soaked in oa/gly mix for just over a year now, still a big learning curve to overcome but to date not un-happy with results.

Using the gib tape has become a neccessity due to high mite/high hive numbers in the North. 

Treating just twice a year is no longer an exceptable option to maintaining a healthy hive, plus the expence of synthetics is just a bridge to far.

 

With the regular contributions From Phill, I have healthy mite-free hives(mostly) it is his research and observations made available to the beekeeping community that have made this happen. 

I hope to here more of his observation and the trials he talks of, he is cleary very envolved and enthusiastic about his hives.

I would'nt just say Phil is researching for us,  but is actually a godam trailblazer for us to follow.

 

 

 

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Good post Bee Good, we absolutely owe Phil. 👍

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13 hours ago, Alastair said:

When I tried Varroa Death Strips last year, they just had a row of 3 staples down each side, looked like it was done with just a normal office type paper stapler. Not quite the finess of a nicely sewing machined job, but seemed to work. Would certainly be a heckuva lot quicker.

I have used the old office paper stapler with no problems.

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In regard Queen supersedure of Oxalic acid treated hives, I wonder if this is due to Tarsal pad damage (of the Q) resulting in reduced footprint pheromone?

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On 16/11/2019 at 4:51 PM, Otto said:

Also just realised I haven't mentioned anything with regards to actually putting the strips in the hives. I shake as close to all the bees off the frames as I can when putting the staples in place. This includes the frames beside the ones with the staples. I hate squashing bees and creating situations inside the hive that result in dead bees. I shake off the bees, put the staple in place and then push the frames together before the bees have started moving back up onto the frames.

I also have no evidence from my application of staples for it causing some superseding of queens (which from reading comments is somethings others do find).

Take care with this system of pushing frame together once the staple is in place.

I always put the staples in last

Reason- If there are even very small protrusions of burr comb in line with the staple when its push sideways into place, that small piece of comb can cause the staple to be pushed up hard against the brood on the next frame.
This kills the brood.
My preferred method is to clean out the comb from the top bar area  and jiggle the staple down loosely

This way there tends to be less brood damage.

Alternatively, some Beeks make narrow staples which in theory do proportional less damage to Brood.  

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For this coming winter i think i'll get those narrows off you Phil, how do they compare against the normal ones for amount of OA?

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4 hours ago, Alastair said:

For this coming winter i think i'll get those narrows off you Phil, how do they compare against the normal ones for amount of OA?

They can be whatever you want.

The amount the of solution held in the finished laminate is factor of the laminate weight.

So you tell me how much solution you want to put in your Hive and Ill produce a laminate to suit😉

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Sweet. Put me down for enough to winter treat my outfit, I'll be in touch at the time. Gonna try skinnys.

 

With input from the good folks here i have a few insights where my issues may have been and wanting to give this another go.

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Alastair via Randy Oliver 18grams of oxalic acid seems to be the optimal amount per box of bees treated.  

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Thanks Craig, that's what I wanted to know but was afraid to ask. 😉

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If it was me I would be giving it another go next spring.. not winter.. while they’re heading towards the rising curve. 

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2 minutes ago, Stoney said:

If it was me I would be giving it another go next spring.. not winter.. while they’re heading towards the rising curve. 

Hi @ Stoney why spring?  Curious.  do you use them only in spring?

 

Edited by fieldbee

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5 minutes ago, Stoney said:

If it was me I would be giving it another go next spring.. not winter.. while they’re heading towards the rising curve. 

 

Yes, i get that. Just, spring treatment this year has all but wiped out this years income.

 

My thoughts are i treat winter, monitor closely, and if things start heading south I pull the strips. Meaning there would still be time to get the hives back into shape for the next honey flow. But wipe them out in spring as per this year, there just isn't time for a full recovery.

 

And then there is that theory that's been put around, that if you keep using the OA even when results are bad, the bees "get used" to it.

 

Course I'm not buying into every unproven theory somebody proposes, but I'll take them into account.

Edited by Alastair

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Just now, fieldbee said:

Hi @ Stoney why spring?  Curious.

Just my opinion and I really don’t fancy another keyboard battle here... 

 

he has some nasties lurking and I would concerned about losses.. these losses are far better during a brood growth phase than not. 

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2 minutes ago, Stoney said:

Just my opinion and I really don’t fancy another keyboard battle here... 

 

he has some nasties lurking and I would concerned about losses.. these losses are far better during a brood growth phase than not. 

Id take it a step further and suggest that Alistair does not get involved with OA/GL

Other systems have worked well for him in the past so why change

 

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3 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

Yes, i get that. Just, spring treatment this year has all but wiped out this years income.

 

My thoughts are i treat winter, monitor closely, and if things start heading south I pull the strips. Meaning there would still be time to get the hives back into shape for the next honey flow. But wipe them out in spring as per this year, there just isn't time for a full recovery.

 

And then there is that theory that's been put around, that if you keep using the OA even when results are bad, the bees "get used" to it.

 

Course I'm not buying into every unproven theory somebody proposes, but I'll take them into account.

And that’s entirely your call. Whenever I’ve lost a box of bees following treatment they’re back to where they were in 4 wks not crushed for the season. 

Tread with caution is my advise.. if you have decimated your hives bad enough to wipe out this seasons crop then I wouldn’t treat them in winter with it.. by the time you see the damage it’s already done. 

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Oh, that's new. You have lost boxes of bees following treatment.

 

Keyboard battle on this thread not going to happen. This is more of a data collection and analysing thread. A useful input thread.

 

And as such I appreciate your input Stoney.

 

Re the nasties, be interesting to hear from anyone else who has had their bees tested, so we can discover if it is a factor or not. Have you had your own tested Stoney?

Edited by Alastair

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Glad to hear..

No testing for me, I’ve had no real reason to test bees as have had a very positive results experimenting with this treatment overall..

like I’ve said many times before, it’s not perfect at all.. but it kills varroa very well which is at the top of my priority list. 

 

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See, that's why you should have some tests done. If you got as high level of nasties as i do, but treating with OA is not doing serious damage, we can rule out the nasties as a factor. If you got near zero nasties, we can still say it might be a factor.

 

But if you don't want to Stoney, I'd be keen to hear from anyone else.

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When we had our population loss at work it was agreed on that it felt we had pushed pause on the colony for 3weeks.. we described it as we “lost a brood cycle” we maintained the treatment period across the 3k hives despite sleepless nights awake worried and by the next visit they looked as they did the round earlier... 

but shiny and healthy looking.. 

its sounding like yours have been reduced dramatically with also brood damage. 

Ours produced a honey crop no drama. 

I’m just worried if you treat in winter it will push them over the edge. 

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I'm worried too. But how am i going to learn?

 

I only have 320 hives. So I can probably monitor a lot closer than you can.

 

The problem this spring could have been alleviated if I had monitored closer. But i didn't cos of all the good news stories I was being told. I'm wiser now.

Edited by Alastair
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As for the testing I agree, it would be great for the greater cause but we are currently living on the bones of my backside and testing is not on my priority list at all until I’ve sold the honey my bees are yet to collect.. 

your losses sound far worse than anything I’ve experienced. 

I only have 200 colonies of my own which are very much my babies. 

I have stepped out of my previous roll managing, only supplying contract labour but still keep up to date with the team. 

DWV is almost non existent in mine and the company I managed. 

I should say.. never seen .. not non existent as we have not tested 

Edited by Stoney
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