The Oxalic Staple Info Processing Thread

[Alastair 8,630]

1 hour ago, yesbut said:

I might be more ignorant than I think, but how do your staples get wet ? Is this rain/humidity between making the staples and placing them ?

 

No this is not pre treatment, this is the period of treatment. Can't give you the proper scientific explanation for that, however what Sailabee said sounds about right. Broodnests have a higher RH than the outside air.

 

Some staples I have weighed have been heavier at the end of the treatment period than when I put them in. Most have not been, but it does show they are capable of absorbing something, presumably water. My own non scientific opinion is that they all likely absorb some water.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Alastair

[StephenP 49]

17 minutes ago, Sailabee said:

 

Glycerol is hydroscopic, so I would think that in making them at this time of the year - particularly where there is high humidity, they could indeed absorb more water.

So how long do they need to dry off before they're used? I've seen two days or not at all by some methods. Mine are drying off in a sun today (30 degrees today) and was expecting to use them tomorrow afternoon. Just checked them now and 50% look dry.

[Alastair 8,630]

I don't think moisture will be a problem when they are freshly made.

 

The reason some people dry them (as i have now found out) prior to use is because if they are "wet" with the OA / glycerine mix it can kill a lot of bees.

 

It's about getting rid of excess mix, not excess water.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Alastair

[Philbee 4,675]

 

Here is a simple solution Calc layout.
In this example it works out the OA weight for a 40% solution if you have 1000g GL and or the GL weight required if you start with 666g of OA
Always do the brackets first just like at school.

 

 

Second to bottom line of bottom square shouldnt have the bold X

[Alastair 8,630]

Thanks for the helpful answer Phil. 

 

The simple formula is add 1 kilo of oxalic acid to 1.5 kilo of glycerine.

 

Or for smaller or larger quantities just add 1 1/2 times as much glycerine as oxalic acid by weight.

 

 

Heat the glycerin then add the oxalic acid, the acid will dissolve at around 65 degrees C. Cool as quickly as possible because it degrades when hot. Just pouring it straight over your staples when hot is the best plan. Has to be warm when soaking into the staples though because it can solidify.

.

When I was doing this with shop towels it could take a few days to penetrate them. I haven't tried it with staples yet.

.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Alastair

[Philbee 4,675]

2 hours ago, Alastair said:

Thanks for the helpful answer Phil. 

 

The simple formula is add 1 kilo of oxalic acid to 1.5 kilo of glycerine.

 

Or for smaller or larger quantities just add 1 1/2 times as much glycerine as oxalic acid by weight.

 

 

Heat the glycerin then add the oxalic acid, the acid will dissolve at around 65 degrees C. Cool as quickly as possible because it degrades when hot. Just pouring it straight over your staples when hot is the best plan. Has to be warm when soaking into the staples though because it can solidify.

.

When I was doing this with shop towels it could take a few days to penetrate them. I haven't tried it with staples yet.

.

You are making the assumption that 40% is a given and it may not be?
Other than that your simple calc is great.

[Alastair 8,630]

Well yes. Same as the assumption in your post. I just expressed it in a few simple words, instead of many words and complex diagrams.

 

1 to 1 1/2. Simple enough that people can easily do it without having to understand calculus, and get the same result. 

 

[ChrisM 1,278]

17 hours ago, Alastair said:

Why Matt? OA does not act on the brood it only acts on the phoretic mites.

(The post was in relation to Matt inserting strips in proportion to brood.)

IMO Matt was exactly right. I insert a leg of tape down every seam of brood.

You are half right to say OA only kills phoretic mites, that is certainly true of OAV vapour. But if you consider any long term treatment such as apivar or bayvarol those rub on the bees and only kill phoretic mites too... One can't puncture the brood to insert bayvarol strips in cells!! The miticide (any) is rubbed on the bees and in cleaning cells some miticide is deposited on the cell wall and later kills the mites trying to develop in the capped brood cell. That is the whole point of these OAG tapes and not using OAV. So in this regards the OAG tapes are no different to other strip treatments; just to spread around the active ingredient so it gets into 'clean' brood cells waiting for an egg. Phoretic mites are something of a barometer for washes and shakes, but not really the problem when they will eventually die of old age, the problem are mites breeding and ~doubling in population in the brood every three weeks. So our focus should be on the brood and on nurse bees looking after the brood.

Edited January 19, 2020 by ChrisM
mistake

[Alastair 8,630]

Very good explanation Chris . I see where Matt was coming from now. 

[CraBee 1,748]

26 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

(The post was in relation to Matt inserting strips in proportion to brood.)

IMO Matt was exactly right. I insert a leg of tape down every seam of brood.

You are half right to say OA only kills phoretic mites, that is certainly true of OAV vapour. But if you consider any long term treatment such as apivar or bayvarol those rub on the bees and only kill phoretic mites too... One can't puncture the brood to insert bayvarol strips in cells!! The miticide (any) is rubbed on the bees and in cleaning cells some miticide is deposited on the cell wall and later kills the mites trying to develop in the capped brood cell. That is the whole point of these OAG tapes and not using OAV. So in this regards the OAG tapes are no different to other strip treatments; just to spread around the active ingredient so it gets into 'clean' brood cells waiting for an egg. Phoretic mites are something of a barometer for washes and shakes, but not really the problem when they will eventually die of old age, the problem are mites breeding and ~doubling in population in the brood every three weeks. So our focus should be on the brood and on nurse bees looking after the brood.

 

@chrism good info haven't heard that before re miticide in cells, where did you get your info from? Would be interested in reading it.

[ChrisM 1,278]

16 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

@chrism good info haven't heard that before re miticide in cells, where did you get your info from? Would be interested in reading it.

Eeek, I thought I read that on this forum, but now that you ask me, I can't pinpoint a document, it was a very long time ago for sure. I took it as true and always thought that is how all these strips work. Didn't we all know this? Someone, help !?

 

Let me quote a bit about Bayvarol from the internet, I hope this is saying the same thing as me, but in a different way.. The last sentence is the important one for the brood cells..

Bayvarol Strips rely on a novel method of delivery to provide diagnosis and control. Treatment is by means of plastic strips impregnated with an active ingredient which destroys the mites on contact. The strips are specially designed to be suspended in the spaces between the combs in the central brood-rearing area. Bees crawling over them distribute the active ingredient throughout the whole colony by physical contact, giving fast control of existing mites, and lasting control of those which hatch with the young bees from the sealed brood.

[M4tt 4,941]

1 hour ago, ChrisM said:

eek, I thought I read that on this forum, but now that you ask me, I can't pinpoint a document, it was a very long time ago for sure. I took it as true and always thought that is how all these strips work. Didn't we all know this? Someone, help !?

I have no idea if this is correct or not . Someone would need to do a Thesis on the theory to  prove it . 
 

The point is , it actually doesn’t make any difference as we really don’t know how  it’s distributed ( by feet , body contact or perhaps even by bees mouthparts ) AND we don’t know how it works . 
 

The important bit , that you described perfectly , is treating the nurse bees that are working the brood . 
 

This line of thought has stimulated some good conversation 

[Stoney 1,584]

I would say anything placed it a beehive is very quickly spread to all corners, perhaps a glycerine and food colouring or blue light dye test could be done to show this. The constant movement of the bees to all areas including inside the cells surely means this is the case.

 

[Sailabee 1,102]

9 hours ago, Stoney said:

I would say anything placed it a beehive is very quickly spread to all corners, perhaps a glycerine and food colouring or blue light dye test could be done to show this. The constant movement of the bees to all areas including inside the cells surely means this is the case.

 

 

I think that is  a standout suggestion as it would show where the oa/gly mix actually goes to - and in autumn, it would not affect the honey crop, and would perhaps provide hard evidence of irrefutable fact. I would try a fair dollup of food dye, mixed with some glycerine, and then heating prior to adding the oxalic acid. There is always the risk that the dye is degraded by the oxalic, so try with a small amount for a start. If that happens, try using one of the opaque cake decorating specialist colourents. I would be tempted to try the gold - but that us perhaps my weird sense of humour.

[Maggie James 906]

If each hive in the apiary was done with a different colour (or would that be too complicated and time consuming?), this could also be a study in drifting.  

[kaihoka 2,976]

I always put food colouring in my syrup when I feed .

I can tell whose robbing who .

The colour shows up well in new frames but in dark brood frames it harder to tell .

[Maggie James 906]

10 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

I always put food colouring in my syrup when I feed .

I can tell whose robbing who .

The colour shows up well in new frames but in dark brood frames it harder to tell .

 

To me robbing is a different bee response to that of drifting.  Mites can be spread by either

Edited January 20, 2020 by Maggie James

[Alastair 8,630]

Bit of an update and observation, I've been pulling honey and putting hives into winter mode. Most of the hives have recovered from any oxalic acid damage and once spotty brood combs are now looking reasonably solid. But what has stood out is the sites where there hase been a good flow, the bees have recovered best. There has been several poor sites with a weak flow, the oxalic treated hives at those sites, a lot of them still looking a bit under the weather and still got poor brood patterns.

 

I know that is the opposite to what a lot of people have noticed, ie, most people have said that oxalic damage to hives is not affected by nutrition. However for my hives, it seems to be.

[ikwezinz 97]

On 19/01/2020 at 7:17 PM, Alastair said:

I don't think moisture will be a problem when they are freshly made.

 

The reason some people dry them (as i have now found out) prior to use is because if they are "wet" with the OA / glycerine mix it can kill a lot of bees.

 

It's about getting rid of excess mix, not excess water.

Alastair, just picking up on the dry vs wet, when we all started down this road, shop towels was the product of choice and those were all fairly wet but hard to deal with hence Philbee's staples being a choice of many after Pam's Cloth, Gib Tape etc.

 

I personally don't recall any losses with the shop towel (including Queens) so what would the difference be I wonder? Maybe the amount of active product was less on the shop towels 

 

I'm tempted to go back to shop towel as an experiment with some test hives even if they are much more work 

[Alastair 8,630]

Shop towels laid over the top of the frames just don't work. Don't kill bees or queens, but don't kill mites either.

 

Experiment if you wish, but unlikely you will be pleased with the results.

[olbe 238]

Shop towels will work between the boxes of a double brood colony , don't work very well on a single .

and they are a pain in the butt to work with , stick to the strips 

[yesbut 6,233]

On the other hand, if there're only one or two hives and no time pressure towels on top in between are no bother at all, and once my stock of staples are used up...The mistake I made with towels this year, I put one too many in between and effectively starved one hive out.

[ikwezinz 97]

15 hours ago, yesbut said:

On the other hand, if there're only one or two hives and no time pressure towels on top in between are no bother at all, and once my stock of staples are used up...The mistake I made with towels this year, I put one too many in between and effectively starved one hive out.

I guess the point of my post was that the shop towels went in pretty wet and I didn't see any real losses, but maybe they were so thin the hive heat dried them out when the same doesn't apply to the staples if they are too wet.

 

But yes they were a pain compared to staples 

 

[ctm 34]

I used the method that was in advised in the summery of the oxalic staples debate in this forum . I have 4 hives each with 2 levels of brood-honey and added 7 staples in that section divided over all the frames. On top a honey super. Treated 3mch19 to 23april19. I use 3/4 only. I counted almost every day the mitefall.

Result:

hive 1: 7day 1103 in 10 days 600 6wks 352 ending in counts of 5, 5, 3 at the end

hive 2: 7 day 2528 in 10 days 1700 6wks 2070 ending in counts of 14,9 (oxalic acid vapour first two days mitefall 30,9) as a follow up treatment

hive 3: 7 day 442 10day 500 6wk 257 ending 2,4,7

hive 4: 7 day 1548 10 day 500 6 wk660 ending in 40,50 (oxalic acid vapour 125,90 first two days mitefall) as a  follow up treatment

 

Conclusion:

• it worked well. Mitefall was reduced to 5 per day after 6 weeks.
• I had to treat two hives with oxalic acid vaporiser because I thought  the mitecount was high after 6 weeks of staples 15-40.
• hive 4&2 the staples didn't work that well and a follow up treatment was needed. They were the stronger hives and were the better honey collectors than hive 1 & 3.
• I didn't notice more dead bees during the treatment.