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Philbee

Breeding reasonable Bees

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Here's how I ended up with a reasonable line of Bees from a genetics point of view which is just one of the layers in the challenge.
I started with 3  main groups of Bees

These three groups all had one breeding aspect in common, they were all from Beekeepers that by one means or another had  put a lot of selection work into them.
 

First lot was actually two related Breeders, Dallas and his old Mentor, they supplied good Italians

 

Second lot was from an old Bee man on Rau Ridge rd Whakatane who had 16 hives that he had managed well with regard Varroa but never intervened in the natural cycle of the Hive.

He never attempted to control swarming and the Hives were almost feral except for Varroa treatments.

One of these Hives was up a gut in the bush which was in effect a cave.

This guys Breeding input was significant in that he had done none at all and his Hives were the result of natural selection (as already stated, Varroa was managed)

These were darkish Bees.
This guy was no slug and had substantial experience in the Bee industry.

 

Third lot was indirectly from the Dave's Carnis.

All were tipped into a melting pot and from day one in 2013/2014 and immediately went into what was to become a substantial Varroa control experiment.

The Bees were subsequently selected for conformity to what I viewed as average. (what an average Beehive in a non Varroa environment might look like).

Not necessarily average relative  to the neighbors. 

The result was good Bees with medium production across the mob.

 

I still have some of the original Carnis in their original gear at the original site.

Same with the Rau Ridge Bees, they are at a Friends site in town in the same gear (outstanding Bees)

Dalla's Bees are just out there but have changed down a gear and got darker.

 

There have been a couple of other small inputs but nothing significant or successful.

 

Attached is a photo of one of the original Carni Hives I worked and Spring treated yesterday.
It was last treated April and yesterday had a mite count of 20/350 but is in Hiveland near Mihi Reporoa.

It will be fine.

 


 

 

 

 

 

origional carnis.jpg

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Let's see some brood pics

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4 hours ago, Alastair said:

Let's see some brood pics

I wont be going back to that site for some time.
But believe me a minimum of 10,000 Hive years worth of observation by myself and others would indicate that your position on spotty Brood is suspect and needs to be backed up by more than a handful of Hive weeks which is what you have, just a handful where others have  thousands of Hive years

Can you comprehend the difference in these numbers

10,000 Hive years versus say 400 hive weeks.

Come back in twelve months

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Sheesh, this thread is not about my "hive years", or "hive weeks", or whatever that is, it's about your awesome bee breeding.

 

I just asked to see some brood pics.

 

From any of your awesome sites would do.

 

Why so upset? If you don't want to show, you don't have to.

Edited by Alastair

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😂😂😂

 

What is this ‘hive years ‘ and how many do I have ? 

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Dunno LOL. 😄

 

I'm guessing the formula is you have 100 hives for 1 year you have 100 "hive years". If you have 100 hives for 2 years, you have 200 "hive years".

 

The first outfit I worked for at age 16, had 3,500 hives that year. So i guess by the end of year one, aged now just 17, I had 3,500 "hive years". Ha Ha 🤣

 

But anyhow, the thread before getting derailed was about how Phil's breeding has produced bees that are so far above average compared to the neighbours. The hive pictured did not really show much so I thought a brood pic would be interesting. 

 

But the question has obviously caused offense, so, I can live without seeing a brood pic. 😉

Edited by Alastair

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Almost.

A hive year is a measure of time that indicates how long a Hive has been in existence or possibly under observation
1 hive under observation for one year represents one Hive year.

 

Its important to use the unit "Hive week" for a Hive that may have been under observation for less than one year as this indicates that the observed Hive has not completed a full seasons cycle of observation

This is important so that large study groups of hives in relatively short trials dont create the impression that the Hives have completed a full seasons observation if they havent actually done so.
 

Strictly speaking  the number 10, 000 Hive years should include a note that indicates the number of seasonal cycles the total includes.

BTW in this case the number 10, 000 Hive years  is well understated in terms of observed hives.

 

As for Brood Alastair this Hive got its AFB check on the day and the Brood is as one would expect in a busy Hive such as this.
Its a Hive and its full of Brood, just like any other Hive.

 

Edited by Philbee

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Yeah sweet, like i say if you only want to show hive pics, but not brood pics, i understand.

 

As to playing who has the most "hive years", who makes the most honey, or whatever, these are games of one upmanship, I have no interest in playing with you, they are only for those with bloated egos wanting to appear superior to someone else. 

 

If you insisted though, i don't think it would end up looking good, for you.

Edited by Alastair

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Sheesh guys . This is great entertainment for me , but possibly not for the general public . There are eyes everywhere 

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Is there anyone out there who swears by or likes the Betta Bees bees?  I've not really ever taken to them, in fact found them a bit more challenging to even keep alive than other strains.  This is just me, based upon my own hive years,  I appreciate others may have a different experience... 

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24 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Sheesh guys . This is great entertainment for me , but possibly not for the general public . There are eyes everywhere 

I'm pleased I'm not the only one wanting more popcorn and a comfy seat to watch the show.

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Problem with you guys, is you just don't have enough "hive weeks". 😉

 

I will certainly not be showing any of YOU my brood. 🤣

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There was a Breeder of great Thoroughbreds by the Name of Frederico Tesio 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Tesio

He has been called "the only genius ever to operate in the breeding world" and "the greatest single figure in the history of Italian racing"

His book "Tesio In his own words" is a very good read.

It doesn't explain how Tesio worked out his matings in a way that someone could take those principles and emulate them and this is interesting because in the book, which he wrote himself there are clues that he didn't actually fully understand the method himself.

What isnt so difficult to glean from the book is the basic principle that successful breeders stand on the shoulders of past Breeders or breeding institutions, cleverly matching up unlikely couples from different pools. 

 

One irony about Tesio was that in many ways his understanding of the Horse was severely limited, demonstrated by a belief that a Horse could run a mile on a single breath when it is obvious to even the most basic of track rider riding in the early morning mist that a horse takes a breath for every stride.

 

His test of a mating was at the winning post in that by winning a race the horse proved the mating that produced it and not the breeding potential of the winner itself.

This is one reason why one doesn't breed from huge hives.

 

The Book is a masterpiece IMO because it  provides very few complete answers and raises many questions 

 




 

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I got a few hive days tucked down under my belt.... does that count ? 

I think we also might have contributed to Phils breeding program in Whakatane, as that was hive central for us a few years ago ... which would mean you have a few of Maggie James's genetics thrown in there as well.

We never had much luck with our Betta Breeder.  She was a lazy layer , but on reflection that might just have been the location.

 

 

 

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Surely location has nothing to do with how the queen lays.It is all down to mating.

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16 hours ago, CraBee said:

Is there anyone out there who swears by or likes the Betta Bees bees?  I've not really ever taken to them, in fact found them a bit more challenging to even keep alive than other strains.  This is just me, based upon my own hive years,  I appreciate others may have a different experience... 

I had one small batch a couple of seasons back, I haven't bought any more.

I think my summation was " good pets perhaps but they have failed to do anything really".

They simply languished, managed small quiet, non productive little hives next to own bred 'dogs' that flourished and produced a great crop.

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21 hours ago, CraBee said:

Is there anyone out there who swears by or likes the Betta Bees bees?  I've not really ever taken to them, in fact found them a bit more challenging to even keep alive than other strains.  This is just me, based upon my own hive years,  I appreciate others may have a different experience... 

I only breed my own now, have tried a few different suppliers including the above mentioned and I was'nt really overwelmed either.

The OP did mention Dallas, who I assume is Dallas Russ of Lion Apiaries, any stand out Queens I have now I can trace back to this supplier.

They are very good queens from this guy ,two thumbs up👍👍

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There are endless selection criteria for queens, this is what I go by.

Must be quiet.

Must be disease-free.

Wasp tolerant.

No swarming.

Must have done two seasons.

Low consumption over winter.

Above average production.

I might even get there in another 50 years.

Not sure about breeding for mediocrity. There are plenty of mediocre bees out there already.

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I think the very concept of "hive years", "hive weeks" and "hive-whatever", and the fact that some commercials think they have to brag about how many beehives they need to keep to be able to feed their family is a good sign in how much (mostly self-inflicted) trouble the whole beekeeping industry seems to be...

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On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 7:54 AM, jamesc said:

I think we also might have contributed to Phils breeding program in Whakatane, as that was hive central for us a few years ago ... which would mean you have a few of Maggie James's genetics thrown in there as well.

 

If that's the case, then it will be 100% brood pattern with a great temperament, hygienic traits and excellent hive production!:1_grinning:  No photo required!

 

10 x 10 cells capped brood = 100

 

Whoops, of course there is a photo, under my moniker!

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On 14/11/2019 at 8:44 PM, Philbee said:

The Book is a masterpiece IMO because it  provides very few complete answers and raises many questions 

 

The most masterful of all is Gerald McBoingboing who asked the Question "Why is a duck ?"

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32 minutes ago, yesbut said:

The most masterful of all is Gerald McBoingboing who asked the Question "Why is a duck ?"

One of my kids teachers said my daughter reminded her of Gerald mcboingboing. 

 

2 hours ago, Maggie James said:

 

If that's the case, then it will be 100% brood pattern with a great temperament, hygienic traits and excellent hive production!:1_grinning:  No photo required!

 

10 x 10 cells capped brood = 100

 

Whoops, of course there is a photo, under my moniker!

Now I really regret not being able to go to one of your workshops. ☺️

 

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30 minutes ago, nikki watts said:

Now I really regret not being able to go to one of your workshops

Well Nikki.... if you wish upon a star!  Will see what can be arranged.

 

I had quite a few attending from this forum. 

Have just had confirmation today (Wednesday) from the Rotorua Arts Village!  They have accepted my booking for a tutorial Sunday 21 June 2020 (the day after the Rotorua conference).  This is the first venue I book, cos it's the venue with the least maneouverability in terms of dates, and choice of venues.  Am also open to other dates and venue suggestions.  I must admit, I really enjoyed last winter meeting such a diverse range of people who attended. 

 

I imagine yesterday and this post today will both get merged. 

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