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jamesc

The folding note.

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18 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

To be able to label your Manuka with the UMF trademark you have to pay tens of thousands of dollars.

In my opinion UMF is a money making exercise and those that produce Manuka honey should not be compelled to use it to legitimately sell their honey as Manuka.

 

 

I am certainly not in favour of compulsory use of the UMF mark. However, while there are dual standards I am simply pointing out that the UMF mark is a standard that the domestic consumer can rely upon. I appreciate that UMF is costly and that not all wish or feel the need to participate. It is a commercial decision for any company to make. Though some may believe that UMF is a money making scheme, it is also worth noting the it is the UMF spearheading the defence and protection of the Manuka brand name and trade mark internationally. It is the UMF that has and is spending millions of $$ in this pursuit for the benefit of the entire NZ Manuka Industry. 

12 minutes ago, tudor said:

"Anyone making a purchase ... the product they think/believe they are buying" is what it is all about.  Misinformation about the benefits has been very successfully used, and reminds me about the measles epidemic which is with us now, partly due to misinformation about the dangers of immunization with MMR.  The link to autism has been shown to be fraudulent and the doctor involved struck off, but it is still seen as a risk and contributes to reduction of "herd immunity".  So with the benefits of oral manuka honey, consumers have been told so often about how good it is for health - it is not, but it's ridiculously good for the folding notes of people along the chain from the manuka trees to the shelf.

Journalistic beat ups sometimes reveal the truth.

Now I remember why I took a break from this forum! Manuka is not a fad or a flash in the pan. Every international market where Manuka gains a foothold continues to expand. The growth is not short lived as seen with (snake oil) products but consistent and sustained through anecdotal evidence and growing research. Scientific study is slow by nature (and rightly so). It is however continuing in many areas and growing. Manuka is being studied for multiple applications and it would be short sighted base your opinion and conclusions on an historic position of a moving target. 

Manuka has gained much respect in the international 'self health' category and you would be very surprised at how many Doctors prescribe or recommend Manuka for much more than topical ailments. 

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17 minutes ago, Adam Boot said:

Though some may believe that UMF is a money making scheme, it is also worth noting the it is the UMF spearheading the defence and protection of the Manuka brand name and trade mark internationally. It is the UMF that has and is spending millions of $$ in this pursuit for the benefit of the entire NZ Manuka Industry. 

 

Yes very true and all credit to them.

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Also not all Manuka honey producers are big nasty corporates, there are still one and 2 man bands out there with nice wee blocks that produce well for both the farmer and beekeeper. 

Passing the current standard can be challenging.. trying to sell honey in smaller amounts for these guys is also challenging, especially with trick labelling out there but it is still possible. 

 

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3 hours ago, tudor said:

So with the benefits of oral manuka honey, consumers have been told so often about how good it is for health - it is not, but it's ridiculously good for the folding notes of people

I apologise if this link to a study of manuka's effectiveness for gastric ulcers has been thrashed over before. Perhaps @tudor you could confirm my thought that the conclusion relates to what is actually a topical application of honey to a rat's exposed internal organ ?  I can't quite figure it out. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5307292/

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

In my opinion UMF is a money making exercise

 


Ahh, so is much of people's beekeeping? Otherwise you tick yourself as 'hobbiest' here

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11 minutes ago, JohnF said:


Ahh, so is much of people's beekeeping? Otherwise you tick yourself as 'hobbiest' here

 

Im a bit thick I don’t see the correlation?

UMF is a trademark it has nothing to do with how pure the Manuka in the jar is.

MGO is as relevant as UMF why should one be part of a standard and therefore compulsory and the other kicked to the kerb.

Especially when the one that some want to be used costs $40,000 odd to belong too.

Edited by frazzledfozzle

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2 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Im a bit thick I don’t see the correlation?

UMF is a trademark it has nothing to do with how pure the Manuka in the jar is.

MGO is as relevant as UMF why should one be part of a standard and therefore compulsory and the other kicked to the kerb.

Especially when the one that some want to be used costs $40,000 odd to belong too.

Absolutely your choice. But there we have half the problem. You believe MGO is as relevant. MGO grading is a measurement of one chemical and not a quality mark. UMF is working to protect an industry and product quality. MGO is used by quite a few to promote and give relevance to some very low grade honey. 

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6 hours ago, yesbut said:

I apologise if this link to a study of manuka's effectiveness for gastric ulcers has been thrashed over before. Perhaps @tudor you could confirm my thought that the conclusion relates to what is actually a topical application of honey to a rat's exposed internal organ ?  I can't quite figure it out. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5307292/

 

 

 

 

The acid is injected into the wall of the stomach, then it's soaked in saline and the abdomen closed up. 

The "agents" are then introduced down the throat by gavage which is "the administration of food or drugs by force, especially to an animal, typically through a tube leading down the throat to the stomach" (Wikipedia).

 

Edited by tudor

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So does this study indicate some benefit when taken orally by rats ?

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Much as you might dislike the gossip and slander on the Forum Adam ...... stick with us mate. We appreciate your professionalism and input .... even though we might be a bit too hasty at times to shoot you down , most of us are just honest Jim's trying to make a living in testing times and desperately need some guidance  !

Edited by jamesc
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11 hours ago, Adam Boot said:

When the consumer buys Manuka they have made a choice based upon what they have read, heard, witnessed and believe that is is more than just honey but is of benefit to them. For this reason the consumer pays the much higher price. It is not for the taste. Anyone making a purchase should be treated with respect and be sold the product they think/believe they are buying. To have one clearly higher standard for export product and for the domestic consumer to be largely unaware of the difference is quite wrong. It is unfair to the consumer and dangerous to the industry long term. Product on the shelf in NZ is bought and sent to friends and family over seas it is also purchased by tourist and taken or sent overseas. In my opinion it is just a matter of time before there is another journalistic, media beat up over varying quality and confusion over true to label. 

UMF grading is a clear indicator that the product has met MPI Manuka honey science definition (export standard). While dual standards remain in place this is a mark that the consumer can rely upon. Unfortunately the consumer is probably also unaware of this? 

 

Adam

Adam, if we only had 1 NZ brand for our honey, an umbrella brand so to speak. what would that do for this industry, dosen't stop different area varieties 

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36 minutes ago, yesbut said:

So does this study indicate some benefit when taken orally by rats ?

Yes - honey does give a significant benefit, but there is no proof that manuka honey is any better than another honey.  More work needed.

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12 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Adam, if we only had 1 NZ brand for our honey, an umbrella brand so to speak. what would that do for this industry, dosen't stop different area varieties 

Hi Denis 

I am not entirely sure what you mean? This industry as it stands is two fragmented to sit under one umbrella brand. Not sure it can work either? Unlike Zespri and Kiwi Fruit we have companies that can choose and determine the quality of the product they produce. Even when the word Manuka is fully protected as a NZ trade mark, individual companies can choose to work to the MPI definition or exceed it. They can also choose the UMF and MGO levels they work to for their range. There is also huge inconsistency company to company in the quality of creaming offered to the consumer.

In my opinion there is not enough consistency of supply in quality or volume guaranteed from any individual region. Specific regional verities have a place within ranges as 'speciality' or 'premium' product for the travel retail or specialist retail channels but could not be relied upon to supply the volume retail channels. 

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13 hours ago, tudor said:

Yes - honey does give a significant benefit, but there is no proof that manuka honey is any better than another honey.  More work needed.

There was a program on TVNZ last night (after Fair Go) that was talking about the benefits of oral manuka honey.  I had a bit of a chuckle when I watched it.  One Dr. /scientist was talking about MGO and it's benefits and then the program presenter started talking about UMF.  It became very confusing.

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8 hours ago, Adam Boot said:

Hi Denis 

I am not entirely sure what you mean? This industry as it stands is two fragmented to sit under one umbrella brand. Not sure it can work either? Unlike Zespri and Kiwi Fruit we have companies that can choose and determine the quality of the product they produce. Even when the word Manuka is fully protected as a NZ trade mark, individual companies can choose to work to the MPI definition or exceed it. They can also choose the UMF and MGO levels they work to for their range. There is also huge inconsistency company to company in the quality of creaming offered to the consumer.

In my opinion there is not enough consistency of supply in quality or volume guaranteed from any individual region. Specific regional verities have a place within ranges as 'speciality' or 'premium' product for the travel retail or specialist retail channels but could not be relied upon to supply the volume retail channels. 

Adam, fragmented - what gives you that idea?.

Yes now it is, but if it was to mature in time and everyone got on board to realize that we only represent a very small portion of the world honey volume, but could be the best/highest price if we all worked together.

Im not talking about a single desk seller like zespri (although kiwifruit orchardists have big smiles and bigger wallets)),If we take a leaf out of the wine industry and individual companies could still market their product, but with a little more control of quality and signage.

An umbrella organization like the wine concentrated on the NZ honey story and locals looked after area varieties, but all with the same end game in mind.

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Back to the future and the Co Op, eh.

I was interested to read an article in the Farmers Weekly by a Mr Richard Cookson  from  up north. His closing comment was .... and I quote ...

"Any strategy revamp with regards to Fonterra needs to go beyond the dollars and cents and acknowledges the need for deeper co operative values to be restored, where shareholders look out for one and another and get to feel more integrated with their co operative.

To have a better cooperative we need to stand up for the values that I think have fallen away throughout our rural communities over the yeras when it comes to relationships and caring about each other,"

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I heard that a significant amount of propolis is imported. Like 80 odd ton... 

Not sure how accurate, but even half that amount is incredible... 

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2 hours ago, jamesc said:

Back to the future and the Co Op, eh.

I was interested to read an article in the Farmers Weekly by a Mr Richard Cookson  from  up north. His closing comment was .... and I quote ...

"Any strategy revamp with regards to Fonterra needs to go beyond the dollars and cents and acknowledges the need for deeper co operative values to be restored, where shareholders look out for one and another and get to feel more integrated with their co operative.

To have a better cooperative we need to stand up for the values that I think have fallen away throughout our rural communities over the yeras when it comes to relationships and caring about each other,"

What a load of nonsense 😂

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You can tell M4tt's out of the game now, he just doesn't care.

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3 minutes ago, yesbut said:

You can tell M4tt's out of the game now, he just doesn't care.

Quite right , except I have quite a few friends still trying to make a living by making milk and I’m quite concerned for them 

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On 2/09/2019 at 10:08 PM, Dennis Crowley said:

Adam, fragmented - what gives you that idea?.

Yes now it is, but if it was to mature in time and everyone got on board to realize that we only represent a very small portion of the world honey volume, but could be the best/highest price if we all worked together.

Im not talking about a single desk seller like zespri (although kiwifruit orchardists have big smiles and bigger wallets)),If we take a leaf out of the wine industry and individual companies could still market their product, but with a little more control of quality and signage.

An umbrella organization like the wine concentrated on the NZ honey story and locals looked after area varieties, but all with the same end game in mind.

I could not agree more. However there would need to be considerable maturity of the industry for this to happen. The obvious influential or governing bodies (Apiculture NZ and UMFHA) appear in some respects to have their hands tied and agendas fixed by a few vested interests. You need the industry to accept quality and standard improvements and embrace marketing of better product as opposed to better price. 

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Just been to Pak n Save and saw this...might be hard for the commercial guys to see but hopefully the law of supply and demand will help return the honey market to equilibrium sooner rather than later.  533149FB-7241-49A6-9FD3-075B96E5AF71.thumb.jpeg.65926a7fc706fde8e48b59cdd65069bd.jpeg9EC9A8D6-7565-4B65-8061-EBCB4347470A.thumb.jpeg.83b4c41aacb581f63f6951cbae984219.jpeg

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23 minutes ago, Rewi1973 said:

Just been to Pak n Save and saw this...might be hard for the commercial guys to see but hopefully the law of supply and demand will help return the honey market to equilibrium sooner rather than later.  533149FB-7241-49A6-9FD3-075B96E5AF71.thumb.jpeg.65926a7fc706fde8e48b59cdd65069bd.jpeg9EC9A8D6-7565-4B65-8061-EBCB4347470A.thumb.jpeg.83b4c41aacb581f63f6951cbae984219.jpeg

 

So what is the point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting that commercial beekeepers take note of this pricing and adjust their expectations accordingly? 

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@Adam Boot I think each commercial beekeeper needs to make that choice based on their own situation...I am not in their position and won’t be suggesting what they should do.  It’s just an observation of simple economics at work and the sooner the oversupply of honey sitting around in metal drums in people’s sheds disappears, the sooner things will return to equilibrium so that they can can earn a decent living for their risks and efforts.  

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41 minutes ago, Rewi1973 said:

 the sooner things will return to equilibrium so that they can can earn a decent living for their risks and efforts.  

 

Before Manuka there wasn’t really a “decent living” to made doing only honey.

We worked in other jobs in the off season because bees couldn’t pay their way for the whole year.

I don’t think beekeepers who got into the game after Manuka have any grasp on how little money beekeeping brought in unless you were running a few thousand hives, even then it wasn’t going to make you rich anytime soon.

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