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Dennis Crowley

Boundary Riding Beekeeping

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So don't you dare let your bees come to my side and mate my queens as I am a pure breed queen breeder.

Don't you dare let your bees pollinate my black tomatoes as I am raising seeds of them and can't have lack and yellow ones! 

Don't you dare to let your bees fly on my land as I am allergic!

........

........ 

and so on.

I think it's quite a selfish thought.

 

 

 

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Black tomatoes ....yeeetch 

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At this stage its just a get together and chat about the issues, and perhaps to see if there is a possibility of some way forward. There is no easy answer, but its all you here about so this council wanted to pick our brains about it. No more rants just ideas please.

For the record, my stance is leave this alone. If someone wants to plant manuka good on them but its their choice, leave the neighbors alone, or you come to some agreement with them.

But perhaps a distance from the boundary from where you can place hives and perhaps a max number of hives per site? I agree its a can of worms but still worth thrashing out some ideas.

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2 hours ago, john berry said:

It's the Hawke's Bay regional Council and I don't know what's driving it but I suspect it's their block that they planted at Tutira in partnership with I believe Comvita

 

Well if it is, that sucks. I now understand why the council wants a chat.  F em.  They took the risk. 

43 minutes ago, Bushy said:

The only law that will solve all these issues, is the natural and inevitable law of attrition. 

So very true.  It's happening and it will help reduce hive numbers over time.  There could be an excellent opportunity for someone to establish a 'get out of beekeeping' enterprise. Like the liquidators do. Salvage what you can. 

 

Not sure why we need to thrash this out- we all seem to agree- Too bad and too hard.  What ever way you look at it, someone will pay for this.  

@Dennis Crowley maybe they could pay a 'retainer' for those boundary riders to stay away?   A stocking rate is the only way I can imagine some control, but all a bit knee jerk.  Everyone was smiling when clover sold for good bucks and average bush considered manuka.  

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It's probably good that the Council is having this discussion. I have been invited to the meeting and  I will be telling them that in my opinion there is no answer to this problem.

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Thank goodness this council has had the sense to have discussion and consult the beekeeping industry, and hopefully they will take note of what many beekeepers think, and everyone that has posted here seems to be of the same opinion.  Because whatever the outcome of this discussion could well set the precedent for every other council in NZ.

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Welcome to the forum Oh Snarky One !

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6 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Placing your hives on a neighbouring farm without permission is the same as putting your cows in the neighbours paddock. But Farm animals regularly forage for food on neighbouring farmers properties by putting there heads through the fence.

no difference to bees on one property flying over the fence to forage another property.

Also the bees on the Manuka block that are deemed to be allowed to stay there will be foraging on the neighbours clover/bush block so how is that OK ?

If it’s not OK for bees to forage from one side of the fence to the other it has to apply the other way too.

So banning bees altogether from any land is the only fair way to do it. 

 

Nah, cows will only reach. 01% of the neighbours farm through the fence while the bees will forage the whole thing.

If a the farm has twice or thrice the carrying capacity perposely to rob the neighbours manuka honey then it shouldn't be allowed especially if placed on pine blocks where there is no forage at all except on the neighbours manuka block! 

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On 10/07/2019 at 5:54 PM, Dennis Crowley said:

Me and a few others have been asked to meet with a local council next week to discuss boundary riding beekeeping, their issue is around freshly planted manuka blocks.

Im coming from the point that all beekeeping sites should be included.

I know this is a hot topic is fraught with anxiety, anger, frustration, fear etc etc.

What I would like to hear from you is your thoughts as to how you may see a way around this issue, but you also have to have a plan as to how to implement it.

For example, if you say " we should just have 400000 beehives in NZ", then how do you propose for that to happen. 

Put your thinking caps on please.

 

A few years ago I put forward a plan where land owners had hive credits much the same as Taupo catchment landholders have nitrogen credits.

These credits are tradeable.

Of course the idea went down like a lead balloon.
The problem of over crowding of hives is not one that ApiNZ will solve without Govt backing

Edited by Philbee

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15 minutes ago, Philbee said:

A few years ago I put forward a plan where land owners had hive credits much the same as Taupo catchment landholders have nitrogen credits.

These credits are tradeable.

Of course the idea went down like a lead balloon.
The problem of over crowding of hives is not one that ApiNZ will solve without Govt backing

 

There are too many hives in NZ for the forage available.

There was a similar problem in the fishing industry - too many boats and not enough fish.

A quota management system was introduced.

I remember in the early 90's hitch-hiking back from Uni to my home town and getting picked up by a commercial fisherman who was rapt at the free asset the government was gifting him, he was trying to catch as many fish as he could that year as that set the quota.

Of course in the fishing industry many fisherman ended up selling their valuable quota, or even leasing it for a return.  Is that a bad thing though?  It was their decision to make.  Many probably retired on that money.

I've been down this path before and got shot down, something to think about though?

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, CraBee said:

I've been down this path before and got shot down, something to think about though?

 

I've thought about it and haven't been able to think how it would work. How do you think it could work ?

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On 10/07/2019 at 5:54 PM, Dennis Crowley said:

Me and a few others have been asked to meet with a local council next week to discuss boundary riding beekeeping, their issue is around freshly planted manuka blocks.

Im coming from the point that all beekeeping sites should be included.

I know this is a hot topic is fraught with anxiety, anger, frustration, fear etc etc.

What I would like to hear from you is your thoughts as to how you may see a way around this issue, but you also have to have a plan as to how to implement it.

For example, if you say " we should just have 400000 beehives in NZ", then how do you propose for that to happen. 

Put your thinking caps on please.

 

which council is it?

when you suggest "a way around this issue", are you suggesting that the correct solution is to impose some rules?

 

my ideas:

1 - explain that the council have no role to play in this, and that it's part of due dilligence on the part of landowners/investors making planting decisions, if the investors failed in this then it's not the role of council to bail them out for incompetence

2 - explain the logistics - bees fly a long way, "boundary" will mean different things to different people in this context

3 - there are long-established apiaries in close proximity to new plantings, rules to force beekeepers to leave established apiaries would be perceived by many as effectively theft

4 - throw this example at them. Two neighbouring properties have commercial manuka plantations - which is the boundary rider? \

5 - point out that the major commercials are guaranteed boundary-riding in other locales, so any local protest is fairly hypocritical

 

let me know if you want more ideas and i'll post them.

7 hours ago, john berry said:

It's the Hawke's Bay regional Council and I don't know what's driving it but I suspect it's their block that they planted at Tutira in partnership with I believe Comvita .

funny, and sounds plausible, viz a stupid council employee got sold a fairytale by the big-C and now that they realise that the emperor is wearing no clothes they're scrambling to protect their stupidity.

6 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

For the record, my stance is leave this alone. If someone wants to plant manuka good on them but its their choice, leave the neighbors alone, or you come to some agreement with them.

But perhaps a distance from the boundary from where you can place hives and perhaps a max number of hives per site? I agree its a can of worms but still worth thrashing out some ideas.

agree 100% with the first point,

and vehemently disagree with the can of worms idea in the second :)

 

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28 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

There are too many hives in NZ for the forage available.

There was a similar problem in the fishing industry - too many boats and not enough fish.

A quota management system was introduced.

I remember in the early 90's hitch-hiking back from Uni to my home town and getting picked up by a commercial fisherman who was rapt at the free asset the government was gifting him, he was trying to catch as many fish as he could that year as that set the quota.

Of course in the fishing industry many fisherman ended up selling their valuable quota, or even leasing it for a return.  Is that a bad thing though?  It was their decision to make.  Many probably retired on that money.

I've been down this path before and got shot down, something to think about though?

 

 

 

It ended with only 2 massave fishing companies that's how, big fish syndrome they swallow all the smaller fish up

Hopefully that never happens in here

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Looks like this idea will work for the Council, not sure where landowners stand, and about 95% dissaproval from actual beekeepers.

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55 minutes ago, Maru Hoani said:

It ended with only 2 massave fishing companies that's how, big fish syndrome they swallow all the smaller fish up

Hopefully that never happens in here

Uh huh ..... little dog yaps and bites heels .....big dog eats little dog. 

It's the second fact of life.

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1 hour ago, tommy dave said:

which council is it?

when you suggest "a way around this issue", are you suggesting that the correct solution is to impose some rules?

The which council dosen't matter, it could be any of them, but already been mention Hawks Bay, I have had chats with WBOPCC up here on similar topic, others are watching/listening to what may happen.

Your 5 points I agree with. The rest is about trying to front foot this issue as best we can before we are frontfooted by others.

 

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The best message to take to the council would be that it appears they have been influenced (wrongly) by those who have vested interest. Capture of the state ( the council in this instance) by elite private interest.

No regulation is currently required or desired. 

The whole matter is the business of the industry not the council.

I don't think there is any doubt the council is the victim of lobbying by vested interests and needs to step back from this issue before they are made fools of by those who are lobbying.

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In theory , if all these boundry jumping ideas become some sort of rules , I could be prevented from keeping bees because I am surrounded by national park which a commercial beek has a conseesionn for .

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17 hours ago, Maggie James said:

Thank goodness this council has had the sense to have discussion and consult the beekeeping industry, and hopefully they will take note of what many beekeepers think, and everyone that has posted here seems to be of the same opinion.  Because whatever the outcome of this discussion could well set the precedent for every other council in NZ.

 

Agreed, sort of. I’ve been involved in a fair few consultation processes in other industries and areas. If you consult, then do whatever you want you can then say that all views were considered and were incorporated into the final decision. 

As noted here, this reeks of a failure that is being pinned on a neighbour.

Its probably worth planting a few Manuka around your good sites so that they can be  defended as a valuable site further down the track.

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Robust policies need to be drafted, thats a given

We will get through this current market / supply issue and there will be a lot of effort put into establishing new  markets for added value Honey and Honey products.
If the Status Quo is maintained with regard rules then the same issues that we currently have will reappear.

 

Having said this I do believe there is scope for higher Hive densities than many believe.

This is because Im not convinced that the Bees exhaust the available nectar supply 
It may well be that the higher hive densities stress the Bees in terms of animal health and as technologies become available to address this issue, the higher the Hive densities that can be tolerated.

So any rules that are put in place must be such that they do not compromise the industry long term.

 

An example that Ill reluctantly share.

Long story short.

A large beek (1000s of Hives) with a very big voice tells me there are to many Hives in his area and its making his business unviable

He never does mite washes as he can tell a hive with Mites from one without and he uses 2 Bayrarol per Box because that is enough.

 

So from the perspective of a Beek who has more or less mastered the art of Mite control, its difficult to take some opinions seriously.

 

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