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Dennis Crowley

Boundary Riding Beekeeping

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Me and a few others have been asked to meet with a local council next week to discuss boundary riding beekeeping, their issue is around freshly planted manuka blocks.

Im coming from the point that all beekeeping sites should be included.

I know this is a hot topic is fraught with anxiety, anger, frustration, fear etc etc.

What I would like to hear from you is your thoughts as to how you may see a way around this issue, but you also have to have a plan as to how to implement it.

For example, if you say " we should just have 400000 beehives in NZ", then how do you propose for that to happen. 

Put your thinking caps on please.

 

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There isn't a way. The folk who have or are spending big $$ on special plantings should have thought things through a bit better before blasting ahead then bleating to the council .

 

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the pink cat is on the money.

 

if you think its bad now, wait untill this season starts up.

those with planted blocks better hope their crop can pass the standard.

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Posted (edited)

It's an interesting subject. A bit like some one building their grand home on a site and then demanding that no one else does nearby.

What is the Councils interest in this matter?? One would hope the Manuka investor/grower is paying all the costs the council will incur, meetings etc etc.

The grower surely could not have been blind to the risks from the outset. To plant and then seek sanctions perhaps to protect their private (but large) investment risk is an odd way to do business.

Perhaps they intend offering compensation to other beekeepers in exchange for agreement to keep their hives elsewhere? The investor of course, not the Council.

The private investor/grower may have a problem but the problem is theirs not the problem of other beeks or the rate payers for that matter.

Some things are just not sensible undertakings (e.g. planting Manuka plantations) where they may suffer the attention of someone elses bees.

I consider that the problem (if in fact there becomes one) belongs squarely and solely with the investor/grower who has chosen to take the risk for their own benefit.

Edited by Ali
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Ali, there is no 1 investor in particular in this, it is just a general discussion, but there are a few landowners maybe thinking of planting and have asked this council what could be done.

Councils do have the power under certain land-use rules they maybe able to enforce, but have asked for some input.

58 minutes ago, yesbut said:

There isn't a way. The folk who have or are spending big $$ on special plantings should have thought things through a bit better before blasting ahead then bleating to the council .

 

Yes true, but if we don't have some input, they can/may make their own rules to appease others.

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6 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

 

Councils do have the power under certain land-use rules they maybe able to enforce, but have asked for some input.

Yes true, but if we don't have some input, they can/may make their own rules to appease others.

Dennis are you suggesting here the council has the power to restrict Peter from having a beekeepers hives on his farm because Paul his neighbour has planted his farm in Manuka? 

Sounds like a rather large can of worms to me... 

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1 hour ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Me and a few others have been asked to meet with a local council next week to discuss boundary riding beekeeping, their issue is around freshly planted manuka blocks.

Im coming from the point that all beekeeping sites should be included.

I know this is a hot topic is fraught with anxiety, anger, frustration, fear etc etc.

What I would like to hear from you is your thoughts as to how you may see a way around this issue, but you also have to have a plan as to how to implement it.

For example, if you say " we should just have 400000 beehives in NZ", then how do you propose for that to happen. 

Put your thinking caps on please.

 

You probably have to define what is 'boundary riding' first?  placing hives near a boundary? any boundary? too broad a term.

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Also the shape of some farms mean there simply is nowhere else to place the hives but near the boundary ... far too many variables in my opinion. 

If you have planted Manuka within a couple of kms of your boundary there will be bees on it from outside your boundary... 

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@Dennis Crowley, I would remain of the opinion it is the growers risk completely. If they want an exclusion zone there must be compensation payed. That said, I don't believe that is a desirable outcome either. Rather the grower should be an informed person who knowingly takes on a risk and must manage it themselves at their own cost. Not the cost of others.

The same would apply if I were to take a wholly organic approach to my beekeeping. I can not insist my neighbours do the same to protect my investment. It would be solely my risk and cost.

Bee keepers in general are not beholden to other investors in the industry who wish to have their investment protected at the expense of others.

We are very quickly back to exclusive area licencing/quota scenario otherwise. Not a desirable situation.

I think the answer is quite simple. The intending grower considers their risk and either proceeds or not at their own risk as in most any endeavour. There is no earthly reason I can see as to why folk who want to plant Manuka should be granted any privilege beyond any other persons or entity.

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1 hour ago, Stoney said:

Dennis are you suggesting here the council has the power to restrict Peter from having a beekeepers hives on his farm because Paul his neighbour has planted his farm in Manuka? 

Sounds like a rather large can of worms to me... 

No, but they have powers under land use and bio-security that they can use, all be it limited, but if enough landowners kick up a fuss perhaps a council makes a bylaw about where bees could be kept.

What i'm am doing is to make sure that mom n pop beeks are not disadvantaged. 

 

1 hour ago, Gino de Graaf said:

You probably have to define what is 'boundary riding' first?  placing hives near a boundary? any boundary? too broad a term.

Yes, is 3km a bees boundary, 

 

59 minutes ago, Stoney said:

Also the shape of some farms mean there simply is nowhere else to place the hives but near the boundary ... far too many variables in my opinion. 

If you have planted Manuka within a couple of kms of your boundary there will be bees on it from outside your boundary... 

Yes its more complicated than people think, also manuka plantations are making the noise at the moment, but spring sites are just as important, if not more.

5 minutes ago, Ali said:

@Dennis Crowley, I would remain of the opinion it is the growers risk completely. If they want an exclusion zone there must be compensation payed. That said, I don't believe that is a desirable outcome either. Rather the grower should be an informed person who knowingly takes on a risk and must manage it themselves at their own cost. Not the cost of others.

The same would apply if I were to take a wholly organic approach to my beekeeping. I can not insist my neighbours do the same to protect my investment. It would be solely my risk and cost.

Bee keepers in general are not beholden to other investors in the industry who wish to have their investment protected at the expense of others.

We are very quickly back to exclusive area licencing/quota scenario otherwise. Not a desirable situation.

I think the answer is quite simple. The intending grower considers their risk and either proceeds or not at their own risk as in most any endeavour. There is no earthly reason I can see as to why folk who want to plant Manuka should be granted any privilege beyond any other persons or entity.

Ali, we all agree with that sentiment, but the reality is different, rather than stick to that ideology, what ways would you mitigate risk.

I know of a case where a mom n pop lifestyle owner who had their bees on their block beside a big block of manuka, the owner of the bigger block of manuka nextdoor along with the beekeeper they used, were going to take the lifestyler to court because the lifestyler's bees were stealing their crop under business interruption clause. It did not go to court because the lifestyler's moved their bees away because they could not afford the court case.

Just looking for ideas and compromises from both sides that may be workable. The govt also wanting to see a move in this area, and they have a habit of making laws that don't work, so we need to help them come up with the right laws as best we can.

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35 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:
1 hour ago, Gino de Graaf said:

You probably have to define what is 'boundary riding' first?  placing hives near a boundary? any boundary? too broad a term.

Yes, is 3km a bees boundary, 

 

so, no other bees within 3 kms of a manuka plantation?  As the crow flies? how is it measured?  it's a long way.  Or else you are stealing high value honey... what happens when say clover/spring yard people use the same argument?  They want to protect what they feel is valuable also. 

Can't see it working really.  What happens when two manuka blocks are neighbours? 

Just because some jokes plant manuka doesn't mean there 'lot' is more valuable than mature plots.  Bit like trying to protect something in hindsight really... 

 

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Maybe regonal beekeeping needs to be looked at too.?

Keep hives in your own region or not at all?

Why dose this specify manuka plantions ? Boundary stacking both in crop and wintering ?

The can of worms is to big.

 

What goes for one goes for all?

 

We have a migrant beekeeper takes hives away then stacks on top of us putting winter strain on our hives while they use forestry access to boundary stack on manuka to get around farms.

 

Can I set up a beekeeping hub in a already overpopulated area ,thats ok because I move into another region to crop which is already overpopulated?

 

 

 

 

 

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More laws.. just what we need... 

There’s many examples of grievances over bees flying next door, some are intentional over the fence theft and some are not... 

i think the plate is pretty empty now and the starving are fighting over the scraps.. 

 

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Some beekeepers complaining about boundary riding at one site, are doing it themselves at another.

 

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I am not really a fan of more rules but the only way that I could see it being somewhat fair is if landowners had to justify hive numbers based on area of Manuka cover on their property with a hive limit per ha of Manuka coverage.

Limiting hive numbers in areas is not something that hasn't been done, in N Dacota USA there is some sort of restriction system. 

Some councils have a lot to gain form Manuka plantations regarding erosion control and water quality.

A can of worms? yes,  but justified in a maturing industry? Maybe?

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6 minutes ago, Jamo said:

Limiting hive numbers in areas is not something that hasn't been done, in N Dacota USA there is some sort of restriction system. 

councils could not afford to police it so why bother makign rules.

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1 hour ago, Gino de Graaf said:

 

so, no other bees within 3 kms of a manuka plantation?  As the crow flies? how is it measured?  it's a long way.  Or else you are stealing high value honey... what happens when say clover/spring yard people use the same argument?  They want to protect what they feel is valuable also. 

Can't see it working really.  What happens when two manuka blocks are neighbours? 

Just because some jokes plant manuka doesn't mean there 'lot' is more valuable than mature plots.  Bit like trying to protect something in hindsight really... 

 

No i'm not saying 3km is the boundary or the distance, just a distance a bee flies. Remember that any rules would have to apply to both sides of the fence. in most councils with noxious weeds you have to keep clear 10mtr from your boundary, so perhaps that sort of thing is a starting point.

Or another way may be to limit the number of hives on a given apairy site and under the afb plan the next site is to be 200+ mtr away or as Jamo mentioned an amount of hives per ha of manuka/land. These are just ideas to start from, so keep em coming.

Councils can just say you need to pay for a consent to keep bees, just like a building consent, self funding.

Dont underestimate the flak councils and govt have been given through the media about bees starving due to overcrowding and dumpsited in NZ.

This council wants to see if there may be away of easing the issue, and other councils will be watching. So let us be the ones to come up with the solution not them.

1 hour ago, tristan said:

councils could not afford to police it so why bother makign rules.

 

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Posted (edited)

In Vermont you are not allowed to put bees within 2 miles of an existing apiary. Unless you own the land then you can do whatever on your own land.

 

However here in NZ that isn't going to work, many beekeepers would have to move most of their apiaries. Is this about the Council attempting to maximise their own dollar returns from their own land with manuka on it?

 

In my view, there are a range of options but trying to make this work will be very frustrating. There is no way of doing it that will not be unfair to somebody. Policing it will not be easy, of my own apiaries, probably 1/2 of them are out of sight, and known only to me, and the landowner. It would also be another reason for people not to register their hives.

 

It is also about protecting the interests of landowners attempting to maximise the dollars they can extract from beekeepers. IE, eliminate freeloaders so you can charge your tenant to the max.

 

 

Edited by Alastair

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Do beeks only want to be around active manuka .?

There is lots of manuka in my area but the chance of any of it providing any honey is minimal and it is not active .

How is it up north .  Does it always produce if it flowers ?

 

 

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6 hours ago, kaihoka said:

Do beeks only want to be around active manuka .?

There is lots of manuka in my area but the chance of any of it providing any honey is minimal and it is not active .

How is it up north .  Does it always produce if it flowers ?

 

 

Obviously If you want to try and earn the maximum return for all your efforts you will. 

If your area has minimal flowing non active then in my book it is not a  good choice to chase it there unless it is your only choice. 

Usually you have more chance of collecting the target crop when you shift bees into the zone as the target is flowing. 

Permanent bees will collect what they find as it flows, eg kamahi flower finishing as Manuka is in flower, shift at the right time the bees won’t hit kamahi... you hope... permanent bees will work it til it’s completed, missing the Manuka. 

 

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@Dennis Crowley I would like to know the actual distance you think hives on one property should be from a nectar source growing on another property ?

 

If landowners are concerned about the neighbours beekeepers “stealing”nectar  from their side of the fence then the distance is going to have to be far enough that the “outsiders” bees can’t fly to it and that’s not going to be practical. 

Seperating  Apiaries by a few hundred metres is a complete waste of time because it’s not far enough.

Funny how landowners have always been happy to have bees next door in the past because they benefited from free pollination .

As others have said if People want to plant Manuka that’s fine but don’t go bleating to the council and expect them to fork out hundreds of thousands of rate payer dollars to protect it for you.

 

This blimmen  country is becoming a right royal nanny state won’t be long before we  need council/ govt permission to use the bathroom .

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Stoney said:

Dennis are you suggesting here the council has the power to restrict Peter from having a beekeepers hives on his farm because Paul his neighbour has planted his farm in Manuka? 

Sounds like a rather large can of worms to me... 

Maybe not to that extent but overstocking it purposely to forage the neighbours should be addressed with farms planting purposely to produce a crop. 

There is no industry where you can legally take another farmers crop without consent, you try put your cows in the neighbours paddock and see what happens??? 

Edited by Maru Hoani
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1 hour ago, Maru Hoani said:

Maybe not to that extent but overstocking it purposely to forage the neighbours should be addressed with farms planting purposely to produce a crop. 

There is no industry where you can legally take another farmers crop without consent, you try put your cows in the neighbours paddock and see what happens??? 

 

Placing your hives on a neighbouring farm without permission is the same as putting your cows in the neighbours paddock. But Farm animals regularly forage for food on neighbouring farmers properties by putting there heads through the fence.

no difference to bees on one property flying over the fence to forage another property.

Also the bees on the Manuka block that are deemed to be allowed to stay there will be foraging on the neighbours clover/bush block so how is that OK ?

If it’s not OK for bees to forage from one side of the fence to the other it has to apply the other way too.

So banning bees altogether from any land is the only fair way to do it. 

 

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5 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

So banning bees altogether from any land is the only fair way to do it. 

 

And try kicking my hives off my own patch because of the commercial Kanuka operation next door !

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16 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Me and a few others have been asked to meet with a local council next week to discuss boundary riding beekeeping, their issue is around freshly planted manuka blocks.

Im coming from the point that all beekeeping sites should be included.

 

Which council? 

Why does this council care about 'boundary beekeeping'? - what has it got to do with them... it's a business matter, do they own the land? manuka?

Did the landowner/beekeepers instigate this 'issue' ? then seek to meet with council to help out. Then reframe it so look like the council has the issue? Spin.

What's your role- from APINZ or as the beekeeper involved? 

Can anyone else come with you to this meeting? 

I won't be happy if this council decides to introduce some bylaws to protect private interest- in Manuka.  Any such law will then have to be applied to all boundaries/areas, then other councils might get on board... 

A per hectare time of arrangement could work?? A small block gets fewer hives, vice versa.  The stocking rate would have to consider land type. 

Imagine the cost of monitoring... and guess who pays... and guess who gets the moola 

If you choose to plant manuka, and then don't like your neighbour -  too bad. Due diligence anyone.  

 

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