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1080

RISK OF CLOSURE

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This is a paper from 1979 regarding the 1080 baits and birds eating them. Weka is listed as medium risk, but as they discuss in the paper some birds would/will probably be reclassified lower or higher risk. The point being that Weka weren't high risk in 1979 and anecdotally might be reclassified low risk now. However, there are a whole lot of birds out there that are high risk. Still this advice was effectively ignored by industry. I suppose it reminds me about the importation of bee semen, where the experts said it would be safe, but it turned out wrong actually. Thus we are still none the wiser when it comes to all the 1080 spin. What worries me is that the rats always bounce back faster than anything else but it is not acceptable to me to poison continuously to eternity. The other worry I have is the sheer bravery of the SPCA to go against the government putting much at risk to publicly make a stand against 1080 on grounds of it being inhumane. These things are not done lightly and so both worries point to something that is unsustainable in the longer term but we have not defined what time span it would stop.

 

https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/1449.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3znW4VGHsYw97BrnasXUr4Ux96uh8ZxIX_7s85w2ZIo59card0XHQoxcI

 

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12 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

This is a paper from 1979 regarding the 1080 baits and birds eating them. Weka is listed as medium risk, but as they discuss in the paper some birds would/will probably be reclassified lower or higher risk. The point being that Weka weren't high risk in 1979 and anecdotally might be reclassified low risk now. However, there are a whole lot of birds out there that are high risk. Still this advice was effectively ignored by industry. I suppose it reminds me about the importation of bee semen, where the experts said it would be safe, but it turned out wrong actually. Thus we are still none the wiser when it comes to all the 1080 spin. What worries me is that the rats always bounce back faster than anything else but it is not acceptable to me to poison continuously to eternity. The other worry I have is the sheer bravery of the SPCA to go against the government putting much at risk to publicly make a stand against 1080 on grounds of it being inhumane. These things are not done lightly and so both worries point to something that is unsustainable in the longer term but we have not defined what time span it would stop.

 

https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/1449.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3znW4VGHsYw97BrnasXUr4Ux96uh8ZxIX_7s85w2ZIo59card0XHQoxcI

 

I was told that on the basis of that information, the baits were changed to flavours that do not attract birds.

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that whole 1080 discussion just seems like a big distraction to me...

 

councils and farmers are spraying roundup and neonics (some of which are banned in more developed countries) like its water, while cancer cases roar... and nobody cares...

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2 hours ago, Christi An said:

that whole 1080 discussion just seems like a big distraction to me...

 

councils and farmers are spraying roundup and neonics (some of which are banned in more developed countries) like its water, while cancer cases roar... and nobody cares...

While not zero, the usage level of most sprays has dropped dramatically nationally since the regulations changed and buying anything other than domestic quantities requires a suitable certificate - much like the Vestex system. The total imports of agri-chemicals has dropped, so the system is moving in the right direction. It is now unusual to see vast tracts of paddocks totally sprayed out for re-grassing, compared to twenty years ago.

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23 minutes ago, Sailabee said:

While not zero, the usage level of most sprays has dropped dramatically nationally since the regulations changed and buying anything other than domestic quantities requires a suitable certificate - much like the Vestex system. The total imports of agri-chemicals has dropped, so the system is moving in the right direction. It is now unusual to see vast tracts of paddocks totally sprayed out for re-grassing, compared to twenty years ago.

 

quite a relief to hear that things are moving along in some parts of nz. I know 2 paddocks (i get to pass when i commute to work) that have been sprayed this year... they even put stock there afterwards to feed on the orange grass...

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2 hours ago, Christi An said:

 

quite a relief to hear that things are moving along in some parts of nz. I know 2 paddocks (i get to pass when i commute to work) that have been sprayed this year... they even put stock there afterwards to feed on the orange grass...

Yes, cows on sprayed paddocks is probably ok in practice, though it looks wrong. Cocky aims to get as much grass chewed out prior to planting. 

The amount of road side spraying is unreal. Again, it's good practice as it stops tall grass and residue build up on the verge. Build up stops water running off road. Mowing adds more multch

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10 hours ago, Sailabee said:

I was told that on the basis of that information, the baits were changed to flavours that do not attract birds.

 

Correct. 40 year old information being dregded up. 

 

Be like saying we still use DDT. Common tactic by 1080 activists but seems dishonest to me.

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8 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

Correct. 40 year old information being dregded up. 

 

Be like saying we still use DDT. Common tactic by 1080 activists but seems dishonest to me.

What gets to me is the amount of people who never normally set foot in the bush saying possums can be controlled by trapping .

They are so unrealistic .

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You bring up an interesting dichotomy. Much 1080 bashing comes from two very divergent groups. One being hunters, and the other being latte slurping yuppies.

 

The yuppies, cos they formulate their idealism while sitting in the cafe, rarely venture far from the cafe, and know no better. And the hunters, cos they want lots of pest species running around for them to shoot at, so they don't have to work too hard at finding them.

Edited by Alastair
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31 minutes ago, Alastair said:

You bring up an interesting dichotomy. Much 1080 bashing comes from two very divergent groups. One being hunters, and the other being latte slurping yuppies.

 

The yuppies, cos they formulate their idealism while sitting in the cafe, rarely venture far from the cafe, and know no better. And the hunters, cos they want lots of pest species running around for them to shoot at, so they don't have to work too hard at finding them.

Yeh nah 

 

There are a few more reasons to disagree with the current approach 

 

None have any to do with latte or activism 

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1 minute ago, M4tt said:

Yeh nah 

 

There are a few more reasons to disagree with the current approach 

 

None have any to do with latte or activism 

The reason I am against is my business was affected by it, along with other reasons..

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47 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

And the hunters, cos they want lots of pest species running around for them to shoot at, so they don't have to work too hard at finding them.

LoL ... What a load of rubbish. 

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Rubbish? Not at all. Although my comment was meant to be in good humour, it also contained truth. Constantly hear the hunting groups crying cos all the pigs / deer  whatever got killed. Same mentality why they opposed the deer cull at Muriwai, the thar cull, blah blah.....

 

Thar are being culled by shooting, to protect the environment, and no 1080 is being used. But you can hear the hunters moaning from here. They are interested in their thrills, not the environment. Sure they say they are interested in the environment, but I judge people by their deeds not their words. These particular hunters do not care about the environment.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

Rubbish? Not at all. Although my comment was meant to be in good humour, it also contained truth. Constantly hear the hunting groups crying cos all the pigs / deer  whatever got killed. Same mentality why they opposed the deer cull at Muriwai, the thar cull, blah blah.....

 

Thar are being culled by shooting, to protect the environment, and no 1080 is being used. But you can hear the hunters moaning from here. They are interested in their thrills, not the environment. Sure they say they are interested in the environment, but I judge people by their deeds not their words. These particular hunters do not care about the environment.

 

 

Good stuff mate...

 And they are culling Tahr.. not Thar, shooting nanny (breeding stock) leaving Bulls for trophy hunters is in my view very positive... there are so many of them in some areas it’s rediculous.

However more to the point... 

Generally speaking the animals eliminated with bullets, either by hunters or Cullers lives end quickly at least.. but that small detail is obviously lost on some. 

 

 

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Well Stoney, if you are not one of them hunter whingers crying about it, good for you. I'll respect hunters who truly respect the environmant, not the ones who say they respect it, but really do not.

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18 minutes ago, Stoney said:

Generally speaking the animals eliminated with bullets, either by hunters or Cullers lives end quickly at least.. but that small detail is obviously lost on some. 

Making the general assumption that unbridled possum population growth has dire consequences for a number of our native fauna & flora species, what is a better approach to the issue than the current one ?

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Just now, yesbut said:

Making the general assumption that unbridled possum population growth has dire consequences for a number of our native fauna & flora species, what is a better approach to the issue than the current one ?

My comments are in response to Allistars comments claiming all hunters are crying over poisoned game animals because there’s no easy ones left for them to “shoot at” which is utter tripe. 

I am fairly heavily involved in “pest” control and have been for a long time. 

All animals living in our special wild places need controlling but.. 

I’d rather discuss bees on this site to be honest, 

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1 minute ago, Stoney said:

I’d rather discuss bees on this site to be honest, 

I agree. Perhaps admin could be persuaded to close it ? @Trevor Gillbanks

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1 hour ago, Stoney said:

My comments are in response to Allistars comments claiming all hunters are crying over poisoned game animals because there’s no easy ones left for them to “shoot at” which is utter tripe. 

 

Tripe? All the people who responded in the negative were, wait for it..... hunters. See my point now?

 

"Tripe", "rubbish", yeah right. 😉

.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Stoney said:

I’d rather discuss bees on this site to be honest, 

 

Of course you do. Defending the indefensible, arguing against the obvious, must be very draining LOL.

Edited by Alastair
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14 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

Of course you do. Defending the indefensible, arguing against the obvious, must be very draining LOL.

Yeah ok you win.. you’re  100%

it must be time for your Milo 😉

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6 hours ago, Alastair said:

\

5 hours ago, Alastair said:

Rubbish? Not at all. Although my comment was meant to be in good humour, it also contained truth. Constantly hear the hunting groups crying cos all the pigs / deer  whatever got killed. Same mentality why they opposed the deer cull at Muriwai, the thar cull, blah blah.....

 

Thar are being culled by shooting, to protect the environment, and no 1080 is being used. But you can hear the hunters moaning from here. They are interested in their thrills, not the environment. Sure they say they are interested in the environment, but I judge people by their deeds not their words. These particular hunters do not care about the environment.

 

 

same dirt scum are releasing fallow deer and wallaby all over the place. Any involved should have all firearms confiscated and license revoked

5 hours ago, Stoney said:

My comments are in response to Allistars comments claiming all hunters are crying over poisoned game animals because there’s no easy ones left for them to “shoot at” which is utter tripe. 

I am fairly heavily involved in “pest” control and have been for a long time. 

All animals living in our special wild places need controlling but.. 

I’d rather discuss bees on this site to be honest, 

pro or against 1080 for possum control?

or too worried about being judged to say?

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Big think over a morning coffee.

Possums are rare critters ..... they have been a major sponsor of our Boy's motorcross team  ..... every dead possum plucked is worth about $10. We need six for a back tyre, about forty for an engine rebuild .....  and I've lost count of how many are needed for an upgrade.

In our endeavors it has been interesting  to note their behaviour.

The workshop seems to be a popular haunt of theirs. They take up residence on the top shelf of a dark  back cranny . They party up at night and strew  the oil filters and smokers that live on the top shelf  to  the floor ,and relieve themselves  on  the usefull bee box body parts that we might use on a rainy day..   

We regularly trap the place with a cage and apple bait. As soon as one is caught, it is not long before another one moves in. It must be bred into them up here that Jim's shed is the place to die for. 

It seems that no matter how hard the culling program, they come back. They are survivors.

 

1080 is the 'Talking point .'

 

But 1080 is just the thin edge of a whole culture of practices we use in our agricultural endeavors to produce milk and honey for our latte sipping urban cuzzins. As I came home the other day the paddock of old grass and Dandelions that was opposite the cell builders had browned off with the glyphosate applied prior to drilling a new crop. 

We now have Glyphosate testing in our honey ..... and yet the cocky is grazing his ewes and lambs on the residue of the stuff .  In a few months time Cuz is gonna be  enjoying the taste of that lamb  in a Moroccan salad at his favorite water front bar. 

 

So here is the story. The consumer still don't know the story ..... and what a great story it would be if we could say ........

 

Must be time for one last coffee before we hit the road.  

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Fallow deer are notorious for escape, I have seen them both jump over and go under deer netting, , they also breed faster having twins is common. 

Around my place 5 yrs ago  a cocky a few kms away along the forest boundary had about 60 escape following a pine tree falling on his fence, despite the heli work they were never recovered and have now evolved into 4 neighbours large farms having these curious little critters roaming them in fairly solid numbers. 

All these farmers enjoy the daily seeing of these deer on their farms, their kids also enjoy hunting them and everyone enjoys eating them but far out the damage to electric fences is horrendous. 

Daily morning trips fixing shorts out around the boundary would drive me insane. 

Chipping away working bees I often see them hopping the fence sometimes only 50-60m away to chomp on some pasture. 

 

 

5 hours ago, tommy dave said:

 

pro or against 1080 for possum control?

or too worried about being judged to say?

I think for POSSUM control it’s a good tool in the box, especially remote or rugged bush but maybe HOW it’s used can be improved. 

I have unfortunately had first hand experience of a pet being killed by eating 1080, that animal experienced a death that still makes me feel sick 30 yrs on. 

If we can somehow have a bulletproof type of bait repellent for large animals I’d feel better about it all. 

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10 hours ago, yesbut said:

I agree. Perhaps admin could be persuaded to close it ? @Trevor Gillbanks

 

No.  I don't intend to close this thread.  I keep a pretty close eye on it to ensure that no one starts getting abusive.

To me, this thread is much like the Abortion debate.  Those who believe, will believe.  Those who do not believe, will not believe. And neither side will listen to the other.

 

So to everyone I say.  Bring up your old data or jacked up photos, don't bother with truth or research because you will not convince the other side, be they believer or non believer.

 

Just don't get into personal attacks or the attacker will get warning points.

 

I really do enjoy reading some of the stories,  both fact and fable.

Edited by Trevor Gillbanks
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Actually, as stated above some of us don't know who to believe, so I think this forms a further category. But as a professional procrastinator I'd agree that what I read here will probably not bring me to a final decision. My stance is probably not to poison unless it really works and much like AFB I don't see it being eradicated in my life time based on what I observe. 

 

In the 'against' list, I include the ineffective results against rats who breed faster than what we are trying to preserve and the inhumane agonising death confirmed by the SPCA that no living thing should be subject.  In the 'for' list, we have killing possums and a feeling that the ends justify the means and at least we are doing something. But the reality is that possums and Wallabies are in Australia and they do not seem to have wiped out all forests. So, we have this binary view of all introduced species being bad and all native species being good. To underline this point there are some environmental people who say that as the western honey bee is an introduced species it too should be under more control as it is affecting our native bird populations access to nectar. 

 

So, making the most of the honey bee and given our fairly ineffective results at eradicating anything, wouldn't it be better to look at all living things equally rather than having a good and bad list? Maybe we could put the 1080 budget into understanding Kauri die back and/or indeed for cancer medicines that the rest of the world gives to their people. My mum died of bowel cancer the second time around.

 

I'm not sure if I could ever have rats on the good list sitting beside native birds, so putting money into a 'Vespex for rats' product would be nice, but 1080 isn't that product so far as I can see.

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