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Thomas Clow

Honey Producers Co-op Meetings Update

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5 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Adam have you ever owned a business other than a minor  shareholding?

Sometimes I wonder if your focal distance is about one foot.

That's a Boot length ..... right ?

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36 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Adam have you ever owned a business other than a minor  shareholding?

Sometimes I wonder if your focal distance is about one foot.

Actually I have both here and in the UK

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6 hours ago, jamesc said:

Because the established  exporters are old school who have'nt moved with the times or are happy with their little niche. The Coop will be a vibrant entity owned by people who are prepared to take a risk and go out to the end of the branch to pick  the juiciest  apple. 

Why all this negativity ....? We saw it with the APINZ vote, we see it with the agency and the dogs, and now we see it with a liftraft being thrown to an ailing industry.

Not negative @jamesc I’d prefer to think of it as being realistic.  I just don’t want to see beekeepers throwing hard earned cash at an organisation with nothing to offer the market that isn’t already available and expect to see a result.  

Incidentally - I argued and voted in favour of the ApiNZ levy vote - particularly for the marketing aspect    

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7 hours ago, Philbee said:

A Co-Op has a chance to improve Beekeeping where individually we have zero chance.
Co-Ops are well proven in many fields, even nature.

Its true that forming a Co-Op will not save the industry over the next two years but it will put the industry in a good place 7 years from now.
 

I will try extend my focus beyond a foot if that is ok with you? Would I be right in saying your favourite colour is red? 

I would welcome your expanded explanation for you above statements?
Co Op's have been around for a very long time. They have never emerged as the preeminent business model. Why and how would a Co Op improve Beekeeping? Individually, why is there zero chance? 

Co Ops have also been proven failures in many fields and if not failures massive underachievers in many instances.

7 years is very slow. The industry will have turned around 5 years before that, so you will have missed the boat.

2 hours ago, Adam Boot said:

Geez, come on, what the hell is going on here? This is not an ailing industry in its death throws. This is an industry that has made significant strides enjoyed booming growth. The industry has started to grow up and with it and it's international success has come new and strengthened standards, increased compliance and improved quality for the consumer. The target has changed a little and the industry goes through correction and recalibration. 

Happens to all industries. We deal with it and move on. We evolve and improve our value proposition. 

Some exporters are old school but there is a new vibrant generation making really positive progress. Go for a Co Op if you want but it will not be the answer you are looking for. I have not seen one significant reason given by the Co Op supporters as to why they will sell better at higher prices.

 

The APINZ not is an irrelevance and has no bearing on this debate. It was just the wrong question, pitched the wrong way by a group not listening to their members at that particular time. 

Corrected spelling - My bad:  The APINZ vote is an irrelevance and has no bearing on this debate. It was just the wrong question, pitched the wrong way by a group not listening to their members at that particular time. 

20 hours ago, jamesc said:

Aah ... big yawn Maggie .....  The backlog is because our honey is too expensive on the world market and the overseas cheque book has faded away. It's a  simple as that. 

We are in hibernation now so I am over Bees ...  more content to crawl out of bed when the sun is up,  fix fences, drink coffee and dream up job creation schemes to keep people busy  to put food into 14 mouths ....  But .... we have plans for value added, and as Adam will tell you ..... it's a long and  slow road. 

We are incredibly gratefull to our marketing man for his stamina and patience in getting the ball rolling .... it's been almost nine months from conception, and birth is not yet assured to see the light of day ,  but it's a light in the darkness, and althought the price is back from the glory days, it has the

potential to move a few drums. So yes ... value added is a way ..... but you need to be able to hold your breathe and be gratefull for small mercies.

Spot on, perfect. You are so very right. It takes time and is hard work. Lots of patience, lots of stamina and a fair bit of luck. For every idea thats succeeds there are easily 50+ that never get of the ideas board. Can't wait to see your new products. 

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26 minutes ago, Adam Boot said:

It was just the wrong question, pitched the wrong way by a group not listening to their members at that particular time. 

 

Have they started listening yet.??

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Adam Boot said:

Would I be right in saying your favourite colour is red?

If you are suggesting that I may be of a socialist persuasion, No. 

Im a center right winger and I can assure you my income far exceeds yours, whatever it may be.

Im also an engineer who has spent many years designing and  building things from houses to production machines and systems.

Engineering folk understand  that what they design must be fit for purpose, economical and work in a sustainable manor

 

When it comes to looking at the industry we are in and its future sustainability its obvious to me that to  some compromises from true blue right wing ideas are required

To simply throw the industry to the whims or mercy of  traditional market forces, while benefiting some greatly will ultimately in the longer term be detrimental not only to the industry itself but also the country as a whole

Whats required is a rationalization not a revolution or winner takes all mentality.
 

 

I see you Adam as a tad to Hawkish for my liking

Edited by Philbee
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We are not putting out "new" products ..... nor are we reinventing the wheel ..... just selling honey  in pots to customers who enjoy the taste at a price they don't find unreasonble. 

It maybe a little old school ..... but I quite enjoy it like that.

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I remember heady days when honey reached two dollars a kilogram due to a world shortage . This didn't cause a huge increase in hive numbers but it did lead to heaps of companies getting into honey marketing. The next year the world market went back to normal (mainly due to China's neighbours suddenly producing huge quantities of honey) and all those new marketers disappeared overnight and the price of honey went to below one dollar, if you could sell it. Hives were being offered for free.

I learned two things from this. Things come right again and beware of flash Harry's who don't have any skin in the game.

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1 hour ago, Ted said:

Not negative @jamesc I’d prefer to think of it as being realistic.  I just don’t want to see beekeepers throwing hard earned cash at an organisation with nothing to offer the market that isn’t already available and expect to see a result.  

Incidentally - I argued and voted in favour of the ApiNZ levy vote - particularly for the marketing aspect    

I think that's the point ..... the present situation is'nt working ..... so we need to find something that will work.  

I fail to see how the APINZ budget of 60k was going to  change anything .

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5 minutes ago, jamesc said:

I think that's the point ..... the present situation is'nt working ..... so we need to find something that will work.  

I fail to see how the APINZ budget of 60k was going to  change anything .

Hang on - back up the bus.  Didn’t you propose that the co-op didn’t need huge amounts of cash??  $60k on a credit card and a cell phone if I recall correctly??

39 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Im a center right winger and I can assure you my income far exceeds yours, whatever it may be.

Wow - that’s a big call!!

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1 minute ago, Ted said:

Hang on - back up the bus.  Didn’t you propose that the co-op didn’t need huge amounts of cash??  $60k on a credit card and a cell phone if I recall correctly??

Correct,  but I bet if I went to APINZ and asked them to blow their years budget on the bus ticket for my sales trip they would tell me go take a hike.

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19 minutes ago, jamesc said:

We are not putting out "new" products ..... nor are we reinventing the wheel ..... just selling honey  in pots to customers who enjoy the taste at a price they don't find unreasonble. 

It maybe a little old school ..... but I quite enjoy it like that.

So on one hand you like it old school but a few posts ago you were berating our current exporters for being too old school! So which is it?

 

Just now, jamesc said:

Correct,  but I bet if I went to APINZ and asked them to blow their years budget on the bus ticket for my sales trip they would tell me go take a hike.

Absolutely because they would be promoting the whole industry not just your business!!

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We are old school, but not tooo old school . 

What is becoming obvious from this merry go round is that those who are scathing of a coop are reluctant to step up and promote a better way forward. 

 

And as an aside, who is Ted from Tauranga ? 

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17 minutes ago, jamesc said:

We are old school, but not tooo old school . 

What is becoming obvious from this merry go round is that those who are scathing of a coop are reluctant to step up and promote a better way forward. 

 

And as an aside, who is Ted from Tauranga ? 

A merry go round indeed - something we agree on!!😉.  As @john berry pointed out things will come right - it will just take time.

As for me - I’m a humble self employed commercial beekeeper who has also worked in corporate beekeeping and honey marketing so have seen life on both sides of the fence.

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53 minutes ago, Ted said:

Wow - that’s a big call!!

Its a demonstration that one doesnt need to be a Right Wing Hawkish Free Marketeer to do well.
There are other ways

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16 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Its a demonstration that one doesnt need to be a Right Wing Hawkish Free Marketeer to do well.
There are other ways

Demonstration           Claim

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This is how I  believe that the Apiculture industry should be structured

triangles.jpg

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14 hours ago, Philbee said:

If you are suggesting that I may be of a socialist persuasion, No. 

Im a center right winger and I can assure you my income far exceeds yours, whatever it may be.

Im also an engineer who has spent many years designing and  building things from houses to production machines and systems.

Engineering folk understand  that what they design must be fit for purpose, economical and work in a sustainable manor

 

When it comes to looking at the industry we are in and its future sustainability its obvious to me that to  some compromises from true blue right wing ideas are required

To simply throw the industry to the whims or mercy of  traditional market forces, while benefiting some greatly will ultimately in the longer term be detrimental not only to the industry itself but also the country as a whole

Whats required is a rationalization not a revolution or winner takes all mentality.
 

 

I see you Adam as a tad to Hawkish for my liking

Honestly, you do not read what I write. Your assume and put words in my mouth and now you throw in something about your income. Sorry, but why would anyone care about that? Your income is your business. 

All I have tried to point out is that rationalisation does not have to = Co Op

You espouse fit for purpose but you do not say why or how a Co Op (this Co Op) is fit for purpose in this scenario. 

 

People are being asked to jump on board the big idea. All I have asked is: 

 

  • Where is the plan?
  • What is the governance structure? Who are the board? Who is the CEO?
  • Who are the executive management? 
  • Where is the financial modelling?
  • Where/what is asset management structure?
  • Where is the income stream coming from?
  • Where are the customers coming from?
  • Where are the kg price increases coming from?
  • Are the banks up for this?
  • Etc etc etc

It worries me that there is no explanation of why and how this can work. 

If you are convinced this is the right way then good for you. Remember this dream is being sold to many people. Many futures and livelihoods at stake.  

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Philbee said:

This is how I  believe that the Apiculture industry should be structured

triangles.jpg

 

Now you have lost me. Image one is an approximate example of current production output and you have a tick next to it. 

Image two does not exist. If you moved the horizontal line up to approx one third from the top and put Manuka at the top and traditional honey below - you may have an image of the revenue split. 

14 hours ago, jamesc said:

We are not putting out "new" products ..... nor are we reinventing the wheel ..... just selling honey  in pots to customers who enjoy the taste at a price they don't find unreasonble. 

It maybe a little old school ..... but I quite enjoy it like that.

I still look forward to seeing the honey in a jar

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1 hour ago, Adam Boot said:

People are being asked to jump on board the big idea. All I have asked is: 

 

  • Where is the plan?
  • What is the governance structure? Who are the board? Who is the CEO?
  • Who are the executive management? 
  • Where is the financial modelling?
  • Where/what is asset management structure?
  • Where is the income stream coming from?
  • Where are the customers coming from?
  • Where are the kg price increases coming from?
  • Are the banks up for this?
  • Etc etc etc

It worries me that there is no explanation of why and how this can work. 

If you are convinced this is the right way then good for you. Remember this dream is being sold to many people. Many futures and livelihoods at stake.  

 

 

To be fair the co-op is still an idea with people contributing thoughts and expressions of interest to expect all those questions to be answered at such an early stage is unrealistic.

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1 minute ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

To be fair the co-op is still an idea with people contributing thoughts and expressions of interest to expect all those questions to be answered at such an early stage is unrealistic.

Yeah that could be right ...but in order to get full support past initial beekeepers contribution these questions will need to have a clear answer before stage 2.

Unfortunately (for me) anything past stage 1 has to be clear cut if we (our operation) is to continue cash input.

I am optimistic this could work,but I also no getting 2 beekeepers to agree on something is hard enough let alone 300?

As @Adam Boot mentions how are we going to command a better price?

 

We all know that compliance cost as a beekeeper are I imagine at packer exporter level it's high as well ?

 

Are we going to donate honey to get ball rolling?

 

Is this all about non manuka?

 

100,000 hives are supporting this,( that's only 10%) so are 90% of hive owners algood selling there honey?

 

Are we going to create a worse situation than what we already have?

 

Just asking?

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Nuc_man said:

Yeah that could be right ...but in order to get full support past initial beekeepers contribution these questions will need to have a clear answer before stage 2.

Unfortunately (for me) anything past stage 1 has to be clear cut if we (our operation) is to continue cash input.

I am optimistic this could work,but I also no getting 2 beekeepers to agree on something is hard enough let alone 300?

As @Adam Boot mentions how are we going to command a better price?

 

We all know that compliance cost as a beekeeper are I imagine at packer exporter level it's high as well ?

 

Are we going to donate honey to get ball rolling?

 

Is this all about non manuka?

 

100,000 hives are supporting this,( that's only 10%) so are 90% of hive owners algood selling there honey?

 

Are we going to create a worse situation than what we already have?

 

Just asking?

 

 

Exactly @Nuc_man.  I really admire the passion and enthusiasm for the establishment of a co-op but just feel those in favour are looking through rose tinted spectacles if they think it will be the saviour of the beekeeping industry.  There are a lot of questions to be answered but as @frazzledfozzle said it’s far to early to be trying to answer resourcing questions.  In my mind there is one question that needs to be answered definitively before anything else is resolved and that is how will the co-op add value to beekeepers honey.  Until that can be answered there is no point even thinking about all the other issues.

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Here's a thought... in good times it was relatively easy to sell the honey.  You did not feel the need of a coop.  Now that hard times have come, you begin to re-examine all the issues and possibilities of a coop. Desperate people do desperate things.  If it is indeed established, it might run for a few years until good times return.  Then it will be gradually abandoned again.

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2 minutes ago, Ted said:

Exactly @Nuc_man.  I really admire the passion and enthusiasm for the establishment of a co-op but just feel those in favour are looking through rose tinted spectacles if they think it will be the saviour of the beekeeping industry.  There are a lot of questions to be answered but as @frazzledfozzle said it’s far to early to be trying to answer resourcing questions.  In my mind there is one question that needs to be answered definitively before anything else is resolved and that is how will the co-op add value to beekeepers honey.  Until that can be answered there is no point even thinking about all the other issues.

The coop may not be the saviour of the industry, but it may be the saviour of some beekeepers.

 

1 hour ago, Adam Boot said:

Honestly, you do not read what I write. Your assume and put words in my mouth and now you throw in something about your income. Sorry, but why would anyone care about that? Your income is your business. 

All I have tried to point out is that rationalisation does not have to = Co Op

You espouse fit for purpose but you do not say why or how a Co Op (this Co Op) is fit for purpose in this scenario. 

 

People are being asked to jump on board the big idea. All I have asked is: 

 

  • Where is the plan?
  • What is the governance structure? Who are the board? Who is the CEO?
  • Who are the executive management? 
  • Where is the financial modelling?
  • Where/what is asset management structure?
  • Where is the income stream coming from?
  • Where are the customers coming from?
  • Where are the kg price increases coming from?
  • Are the banks up for this?
  • Etc etc etc

It worries me that there is no explanation of why and how this can work. 

If you are convinced this is the right way then good for you. Remember this dream is being sold to many people. Many futures and livelihoods at stake.  

 

 

 

 

 

Now you have lost me. Image one is an approximate example of current production output and you have a tick next to it. 

Image two does not exist. If you moved the horizontal line up to approx one third from the top and put Manuka at the top and traditional honey below - you may have an image of the revenue split. 

I still look forward to seeing the honey in a jar

In the fullness of time.

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What's a fair price to a beekeeper?

What's a fair price to the consumer?

 

For me 7-8$ kg is break even providing I don't blow engines in more than one truck and nobody damages anything

So if the co op isn't the answer what is?

 

Be patient hope the bank manager supports.?

 

Be patient hope the existing packers/exporters can get it moving?

 

Be patient go broke?

 

Be proactive as a industry and make something happen..?

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25 minutes ago, Nuc_man said:

What's a fair price to a beekeeper?

What's a fair price to the consumer?

 

For me 7-8$ kg is break even providing I don't blow engines in more than one truck and nobody damages anything

So if the co op isn't the answer what is?

 

Be patient hope the bank manager supports.?

 

Be patient hope the existing packers/exporters can get it moving?

 

Be patient go broke?

 

Be proactive as a industry and make something happen..?

As a commodity honey is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it - current world prices will be a guide with hopefully a premium for our quality.

 

The co-op may be the answer but as you said yourself you need to know how it’s going to achieve its goals before you invest rather than blindly throwing money at it.  I don’t know how it will make a difference and I’m waiting for someone to tell me.  

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