Jump to content
Thomas Clow

Honey Producers Co-op Meetings Update

Recommended Posts

 

56 minutes ago, Bbee said:

That is a good question ... at that purchase rate the backlog of the the various honeys in NZ will be used up quite soon?    If that is indeed the case, then why should anyone need a Cooperative to assist with marketing and moving NZ honey - or am I just being unnecessarily churlish?

 

No, I don't think you are being churlish, this is just another part of the conversation.  Is there a backlog of light coloured honeys?  To be honest when I look at what has been paid out for clover the last few years, what silly beekeeper would have hung onto it?  Where has the backlog of light coloured honeys come from?  Who would take the gamble on clover honey when the price is governed as a world commodity?  Unless, there is a massive amount of beekeepers out there hanging onto harvest produced in previous seasons, why would there be a backlog next season?  One of the reasons would be, they can weather the storm and hang onto next season.  The reason for previous seasons would be greed - thinking that the price would increase (how bizarre).  If I was a packer, I would be buying up as much as possible at the rates that are being paid at the moment. You can't produce the light coloured stuff for what is being paid out at the moment.   It is better than money in the bank - what an amazing super policy!  The last few years, packers have been hit hard in what they have had to pay for product, so what goes round comes around.  It's called boom/bust.  I can't comment on manuka, cos I don't produce it. 

 

So, I think one of the things we need to think about how long is this situation going to last with each varietal, how much packers are buying up, and of course manuka how much is the backlog?

Whoops - Forgot to mention - Maybe it's time to seriously consider value added product

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a seller's market, packers buy whatever they can when they can. In a buyers market they tend to be a lot more cautious so as not to get stuck with overpriced stock and they also know they can fill their inventory any time they want to.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, john berry said:

Apinz has any number of members who have been quite happy to screw over their fellow beekeepers. They do have a code of conduct , if they were to enforce it they would only have a handful of members left.

 

John I can say that about all the bee keeping groups, unfortunately  it is all through this industry

7 hours ago, Jamo said:

I just had honey on toast for lunch. I'm thinking that i might have to get accustomed to it.

Jamo I hope you paying your self a good price for that honey.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Maggie James said:

 

 

No, I don't think you are being churlish, this is just another part of the conversation.  Is there a backlog of light coloured honeys?  To be honest when I look at what has been paid out for clover the last few years, what silly beekeeper would have hung onto it?  Where has the backlog of light coloured honeys come from?  Who would take the gamble on clover honey when the price is governed as a world commodity?  Unless, there is a massive amount of beekeepers out there hanging onto harvest produced in previous seasons, why would there be a backlog next season?  One of the reasons would be, they can weather the storm and hang onto next season.  The reason for previous seasons would be greed - thinking that the price would increase (how bizarre).  If I was a packer, I would be buying up as much as possible at the rates that are being paid at the moment. You can't produce the light coloured stuff for what is being paid out at the moment.   It is better than money in the bank - what an amazing super policy!  The last few years, packers have been hit hard in what they have had to pay for product, so what goes round comes around.  It's called boom/bust.  I can't comment on manuka, cos I don't produce it. 

 

So, I think one of the things we need to think about how long is this situation going to last with each varietal, how much packers are buying up, and of course manuka how much is the backlog?

Whoops - Forgot to mention - Maybe it's time to seriously consider value added product

Aah ... big yawn Maggie .....  The backlog is because our honey is too expensive on the world market and the overseas cheque book has faded away. It's a  simple as that. 

We are in hibernation now so I am over Bees ...  more content to crawl out of bed when the sun is up,  fix fences, drink coffee and dream up job creation schemes to keep people busy  to put food into 14 mouths ....  But .... we have plans for value added, and as Adam will tell you ..... it's a long and  slow road. 

We are incredibly gratefull to our marketing man for his stamina and patience in getting the ball rolling .... it's been almost nine months from conception, and birth is not yet assured to see the light of day ,  but it's a light in the darkness, and althought the price is back from the glory days, it has the

potential to move a few drums. So yes ... value added is a way ..... but you need to be able to hold your breathe and be gratefull for small mercies.

Edited by jamesc
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Maggie James said:

what an amazing super policy

Lol

Its all good until the bank calls your debt, then someone else gets your nest egg.
I was talking to a Beek a while back who had Kiwifruit as well as bees and he told me that in 2008 the Banks called numerous mortgages in Kiwifruit

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Lol

Its all good until the bank calls your debt, then someone else gets your nest egg.
I was talking to a Beek a while back who had Kiwifruit as well as bees and he told me that in 2008 the Banks called numerous mortgages in Kiwifruit

 

 

7 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Lol

Its all good until the bank calls your debt, then someone else gets your nest egg.
I was talking to a Beek a while back who had Kiwifruit as well as bees and he told me that in 2008 the Banks called numerous mortgages in Kiwifruit

 

Uh huh .... I hear you Brother !

36 minutes ago, jamesc said:

 

Uh huh .... I hear you Brother !

The point being that now kiwi fruit is booming  ... so we need to hold the faith ... right !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎30‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 9:17 PM, jamesc said:

I don't get out much , so it's good to keep abreast with what's happening out in the real world with a man

 

 

I don't think there has been a backlog of light coloured honey, but there will be at the prices being paid this year.  That is why some packers/exporters have stopped buying, and others continue.  Therefore, it may well be the situation and price with light coloured honey may well continue for the beekeeper for a couple of years.  It would be a dreadful situation if it were three years

10 hours ago, jamesc said:
10 hours ago, jamesc said:

The backlog is because our honey is too expensive on the world market and the overseas cheque book has faded away.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, jamesc said:

Aah ... big yawn Maggie .....  The backlog is because our honey is too expensive on the world market and the overseas cheque book has faded away. It's a  simple as that. 

Yep, that’s it in a nutshell.  So - how is a co-op going to overcome those issues??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ted said:

Yep, that’s it in a nutshell.  So - how is a co-op going to overcome those issues??

It won't but it will provide a solid close to home very well known highly identifiable entity for all the members to blame when it doesn't.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, yesbut said:

It won't but it will provide a solid close to home very well known highly identifiable entity for all the members to blame when it doesn't.

Ain’t that the truth!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Co-Op has a chance to improve Beekeeping where individually we have zero chance.
Co-Ops are well proven in many fields, even nature.

Its true that forming a Co-Op will not save the industry over the next two years but it will put the industry in a good place 7 years from now.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is probably another factor that is effecting the price we get offered for our pasture and Bush honey that is likely a much bigger factor now than it was 5 years ago. We are told that the value of our non Manuka honey is set by the world honey price. Unfortunately a large driver of the world honey price is the volume of cheep Chinese man made fake honey. Check out rotten on Netflix.

What we need more than anything is a strong nz brand that elevates our genuine traceable antibiotic free honey above world honey and it's price.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So regular buyers not buying

 

A bit of no faith in a co OP?

 

That can only spell death to a industry?

 

So I guess for me I would probably through my last pennies at a opportunity to create something that at least I could have a say in or maybe even be apart of.

 

The road is rough the journey is long whatever the outcome we produce food in a staving world.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jamo said:

There is probably another factor that is effecting the price we get offered for our pasture and Bush honey that is likely a much bigger factor now than it was 5 years ago. We are told that the value of our non Manuka honey is set by the world honey price. Unfortunately a large driver of the world honey price is the volume of cheep Chinese man made fake honey. Check out rotten on Netflix.

What we need more than anything is a strong nz brand that elevates our genuine traceable antibiotic free honey above world honey and it's price.

I’m sure we have a whole lot of exporters with very strong brands who have been consistently pushing this barrow for years.

4 minutes ago, Philbee said:

A Co-Op has a chance to improve Beekeeping where individually we have zero chance.
Co-Ops are well proven in many fields, even nature.

Its true that forming a Co-Op will not save the industry over the next two years but it will put the industry in a good place 7 years from now.
 

How so Phil??  In 7 years time the markets will have been re-established and all exporters will be actively buying honey again.  The co-op suppliers/shareholders  will go looking for the best price and the co-op won’t have sufficient product to meet its obligations.  History repeats.

9 minutes ago, Nuc_man said:

So regular buyers not buying

 

A bit of no faith in a co OP?

 

That can only spell death to a industry?

 

So I guess for me I would probably through my last pennies at a opportunity to create something that at least I could have a say in or maybe even be apart of.

 

The road is rough the journey is long whatever the outcome we produce food in a staving world.

I’ll ask the question again - how can a start up co-op succeed in a market where long established exporters are currently struggling to make headway??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Ted said:

How so Phil??  In 7 years time the markets will have been re-established and all exporters will be actively buying honey again.  The co-op suppliers/shareholders  will go looking for the best price and the co-op won’t have sufficient product to meet its obligations.  History repeats.

Two answers here
My opinion is that in 7 years time the world we live in will be very different from today and IMO CO-Ops will be a natural evolution in surviving

 

History does repeat and if we do the same things we will continually get the same outcomes.
A Co-Operative approach IMO will help smooth out the bumps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Two answers here
My opinion is that in 7 years time the world we live in will be very different from today and IMO CO-Ops will be a natural evolution in surviving

 

History does repeat and if we do the same things we will continually get the same outcomes.
A Co-Operative approach IMO will help smooth out the bumps

Lots of opinion Phil but no reasoning.  

If history repeats why would we consider recreating a model that has already failed??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Ted said:

I’m sure we have a whole lot of exporters with very strong brands who have been consistently pushing this barrow for years.

How so Phil??  In 7 years time the markets will have been re-established and all exporters will be actively buying honey again.  The co-op suppliers/shareholders  will go looking for the best price and the co-op won’t have sufficient product to meet its obligations.  History repeats.

I’ll ask the question again - how can a start up co-op succeed in a market where long established exporters are currently struggling to make headway??

Because the established  exporters are old school who have'nt moved with the times or are happy with their little niche. The Coop will be a vibrant entity owned by people who are prepared to take a risk and go out to the end of the branch to pick  the juiciest  apple. 

Why all this negativity ....? We saw it with the APINZ vote, we see it with the agency and the dogs, and now we see it with a liftraft being thrown to an ailing industry.

Edited by jamesc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ted said:

Lots of opinion Phil but no reasoning.  

If history repeats why would we consider recreating a model that has already failed??

 

Did the co-op fail because beekeepers were selling to other buyers because of the high prices in offer for Bush honey that was then being used to blend into Manuka ?

 

with the blending not so prevalent and prices for non Manuka dropping maybe the co-op will have ample honey to sell both in the near future and in the long term 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One point about Co-ops that Ive thought about
Why should there be just one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

Did the co-op fail because beekeepers were selling to other buyers because of the high prices in offer for Bush honey that was then being used to blend into Manuka ?

 

Yes, i reckon.  All honey was bought at a higher price, to blend.  Resulting in lost markets for lower value products for the last Cop.  There was also a 'scramble' to purchase honey during the and near the tale end of Manuka Blend-da-gate.  

1 hour ago, Jamo said:

Unfortunately a large driver of the world honey price is the volume of cheep Chinese man made fake honey. Check out rotten on Netflix.

 

There is Chinese honey and then the world priced honey.  Chinese honey is much cheaper.  We are competing with Canada, South America and Australia to name a few-  the beekeepers in these countries can produce big average yields and can run a business on world prices. The use of antibiotics is not extreme and in my experience well managed, and avoided if possible.  

Treatment with biotics (in my experience in Canada) was done early spring- well before honey flows.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jamo said:

There is probably another factor that is effecting the price we get offered for our pasture and Bush honey that is likely a much bigger factor now than it was 5 years ago. We are told that the value of our non Manuka honey is set by the world honey price. Unfortunately a large driver of the world honey price is the volume of cheep Chinese man made fake honey. Check out rotten on Netflix.

What we need more than anything is a strong nz brand that elevates our genuine traceable antibiotic free honey above world honey and it's price.

Jamo is spot on, if the co-op just becomes another packer it will stand beside the other 185 nz honey brands on shelves and be subject to bidding downward for that space. If it decided from the get go, to be aiming for the top quality brand along with all the things Jamo mentions and more, we don't need to sell to all the world, we need to sell to the markets that are after the quality of honey we can provide. As we are such a small percent of the market.

The other problem with Chinese honey is under their rules honey is nectar from the hive, rest of the world, honey is nectar ripened in the hive. So Chinese milk their hives for the nectar and ripen it in factories, plus what ever other substance that the bees can harvest. If China went to the same rules, I'm told that that one thing would lift world honey prices by a $1 or 2.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gino de Graaf said:

 

The use of antibiotics is not extreme and in my experience well managed, and avoided if possible.  

Treatment with biotics (in my experience in Canada) was done early spring- well before honey flows.   

We must have worked in diffrent parts of Canada. Where i worked antibiotic laced sugar was fed multiple times during the eairly willow then dandelion flows accross all hives in all apiaries. Defiantly a lot of honey was being collected during treatment and a significant amount of this would have been pushed up as broodnests expanded. Really put me off eating the honey. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jamesc said:

Because the established  exporters are old school who have'nt moved with the times or are happy with their little niche. The Coop will be a vibrant entity owned by people who are prepared to take a risk and go out to the end of the branch to pick  the juiciest  apple. 

Why all this negativity ....? We saw it with the APINZ vote, we see it with the agency and the dogs, and now we see it with a liftraft being thrown to an ailing industry.

Geez, come on, what the hell is going on here? This is not an ailing industry in its death throws. This is an industry that has made significant strides enjoyed booming growth. The industry has started to grow up and with it and it's international success has come new and strengthened standards, increased compliance and improved quality for the consumer. The target has changed a little and the industry goes through correction and recalibration. 

Happens to all industries. We deal with it and move on. We evolve and improve our value proposition. 

Some exporters are old school but there is a new vibrant generation making really positive progress. Go for a Co Op if you want but it will not be the answer you are looking for. I have not seen one significant reason given by the Co Op supporters as to why they will sell better at higher prices.

 

The APINZ not is an irrelevance and has no bearing on this debate. It was just the wrong question, pitched the wrong way by a group not listening to their members at that particular time. 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jamo said:

We must have worked in diffrent parts of Canada. Where i worked antibiotic laced sugar was fed multiple times during the eairly willow then dandelion flows accross all hives in all apiaries. Defiantly a lot of honey was being collected during treatment and a significant amount of this would have been pushed up as broodnests expanded. Really put me off eating the honey. 

Not sure where Gino worked, but I think  in most places, best commercial practice is to dust across the top bars with an icing sugar/oxytetracycline(OTC) mix every time you go into the hive before the honey boxes go on, and then for good measure, some still use extender patties, which are a vegetable shortening, sugar and OTC delight that is thought to give you antibiotic cover during the honey flow.  The problem, with only treating in the spring, is that the colonies break down with AFB  during the honey flow once the levels of OTC fall below levels which inhibit AFB infection, and whole lot of AFB scale is produced which creates the AFB problem you'll face and treat for next season.  That is the slippery slope you fall down, once you start trying to control AFB with antibiotics.

55 minutes ago, Adam Boot said:

Geez, come on, what the hell is going on here? This is not an ailing industry in its death throws. This is an industry that has made significant strides enjoyed booming growth. The industry has started to grow up and with it and it's international success has come new and strengthened standards, increased compliance and improved quality for the consumer. The target has changed a little and the industry goes through correction and recalibration. 

Happens to all industries. We deal with it and move on. We evolve and improve our value proposition. 

Some exporters are old school but there is a new vibrant generation making really positive progress. Go for a Co Op if you want but it will not be the answer you are looking for. I have not seen one significant reason given by the Co Op supporters as to why they will sell better at higher prices.

 

The APINZ not is an irrelevance and has no bearing on this debate. It was just the wrong question, pitched the wrong way by a group not listening to their members at that particular time. 

This is an ailing industry.  It might not be obvious to honey marketers, but it is painfully obvious to beekeepers. We did enjoy booming growth, and now we are experiencing the beginnings of a very unenjoyable bust.  The reason is because that growth was rampant and uncontrolled.  The industry was overwhelmed with a 'gold fever', and in our madness, colony numbers grew far beyond what was sustainable, beekeeper behaviour  degraded to the point where the 'wild west' analogies were totally accurate, and all of us should have been totally embarrassed by our behaviours when it came to the ruthless way we hunted down sites- we could only sleep at night because we told ourselves that others have done the same to us, so we can do it to them. The industry isn't in it's death throws, it will survive, but a lot of beekeepers won't.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Adam Boot said:

Geez, come on, what the hell is going on here? This is not an ailing industry in its death throws. This is an industry that has made significant strides enjoyed booming growth. The industry has started to grow up and with it and it's international success has come new and strengthened standards, increased compliance and improved quality for the consumer. The target has changed a little and the industry goes through correction and recalibration. 

Happens to all industries. We deal with it and move on. We evolve and improve our value proposition. 

Some exporters are old school but there is a new vibrant generation making really positive progress. Go for a Co Op if you want but it will not be the answer you are looking for. I have not seen one significant reason given by the Co Op supporters as to why they will sell better at higher prices.

 

The APINZ not is an irrelevance and has no bearing on this debate. It was just the wrong question, pitched the wrong way by a group not listening to their members at that particular time. 

Adam have you ever owned a business other than a minor  shareholding?

Sometimes I wonder if your focal distance is about one foot.

  • Agree 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...