Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I run 70 hives as organically as i can. The last four years all my treatments have been with Apigaurd. I also have

a retail honey outlet and meet beeks from all over the world weekly. I was chatting with some german beeks and french last week.

They both had long brood breaks and this is a real plus for the control of varroa. I by contrast have no brood break which led me to wonder if

i could cage my queens to enforce a brood break. My greatest losses are from varroa over load in july/ august. Is there anyone out there has tried this?

Any thoughts on how to do it ,/ Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I’m interested to hear how you manage that .

Apiguard only works at the right temp which needs to be warm to get the crystals to vapourise.

So your issue would be the long period from a late summer treatment with mites building all the way through winter in your brood,  not at all helped by it not being hot enough to treat again till the early summer heat arrives. 

 

That has not answered your question though . I’m thinking you’d need a really long brood break for what you are trying to do and you’d have to make sure there were no mites there ready to take off when the queen laid again .

Edited by M4tt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, M4tt said:

I’m interested to hear how you manage that .

Apiguard only works at the right temp which needs to be warm to get the crystals to vapourise.

So your issue would be the long period from a late summer treatment with mites building all the way through winter in your brood,  not at all helped by it not being hot enough to treat again till the early summer heat arrives. 

 

That has not answered your question though . I’m thinking you’d need a really long brood break for what you are trying to do and you’d have to make sure there were no mites there ready to take off when the queen laid again .

As i say i have used it solely for four years. Our winter temps seem to allow treatment even below optimum. My spring loses range between 10 /15%. Mostly colony collapse to varroa. I want to try caging the queen then treating three weeks later before releasing her. Idea is to basically clean  all he brood and bees. Picking early june would suit before wintering down tight.

 

Edited by Gavin Smith

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gavin Smith said:

As i say i have used it solely for four years. Our winter temps seem to allow treatment even below optimum. My spring loses range between 10 /15%. Mostly colony collapse to varroa. I want to try caging the queen then treating three weeks later before releasing her. Idea is to basically clean  all he brood and bees. Picking early june would suit before wintering down tight.

 

Ok.

On the odd occasion where I’ve caged queens for extended periods , they can make emergency cells , presumably as the queen pheromone is no longer getting around the whole hive , or they react to the queen being stressed . Either way , that would be an issue mid winter 

  • Good Info 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

anyone else wait for @john berry to say something 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Gavin Smith said:

My greatest losses are from varroa over load in july/ august.

 

15 minutes ago, Gavin Smith said:

Our winter temps seem to allow treatment even below optimum.

you problem is simply the treatment is not working well enough.

even in northland winter is not warm enough for it to work well. even spring is to cold. autumn it works well, but its variable.

thats one of the issues i found was the variability. there was always a few hives where it didn't work well enough.

 

the other thing is apiguard itself often causes a brood break.

i would not use apiguard as the only treatment. i would use something else in spring and winter.

 

i doubt you will be able to force a brood break for long enough short of putting the hives into cold storage for a month (i have heard of that being done overseas).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My experience with caging Queens in the same hive is that the bees will make emergency cells and the Queen will sometimes die in the cage.

Maybe you could consider another organic treatment eg like oxalic / glycerine? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, CraBee said:

My experience with caging Queens in the same hive is that the bees will make emergency cells and the Queen will sometimes die in the cage.

Maybe you could consider another organic treatment eg like oxalic / glycerine? 

 

Happy with my treatment, my loses seem no higher then most i know of. Was just looking to add tool to the job. Thanks for the info.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We did a yard yast year with full frame cages, no comb. They were in the cages for too long but that is another story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Charles said:

We did a yard yast year with full frame cages, no comb. They were in the cages for too long but that is another story.

 

 

Details please, why did you do it? i was thinking full frames for caging. How long was too long. Please

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Gavin Smith said:

 

 

Details please, why did you do it? i was thinking full frames for caging. How long was too long. Please

We did it to try oxalic acid dribble 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used 2 day cells for some requeening this year.  No noticable difference for success between 2 and 10 day old cells. 

25 days after putting in 2/3 day cell I queen checked and did a oxalic dribble.

I placed a few boards to monitor mite fall. 

I went back 24 hours later.  There was mite fall but nothing that suggested great mite kill.  I did wash a few of these hives, and only 2-3 mites at requeen time (day 1)

The new queens were just laying at day 25. 

At 2-3 mites (at rqueen - Day 1) I would have assumed lots of mites present when no capped broood at day 25. 

It is possible more mites dropped for a few days after, 

Nothing conclusive, and it's an idea I have been playing around with for a few years- 

@Charles what did you mean?  Queens left in too long.... 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the (southern) italians do a lot of brood breaking by caging the queen. but apparently the bees sometimes will try to supercede or raise emergency cells. so after the caging check for cells.

 

just some food for thought:

 

what you also could do is try and get some of these (havent seen them in nz anywhere) or build your own: https://www.imkertechnik-wagner.de/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/310x310/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/a/bannwabentasche-low2.jpg. it basically is a queen excluder cage for 1 or 2 whole frames so the queen will continue to lay. after all other brood has hatched you can simply remove and freeze the capped brood from those, that alone should remove a lot of mites. and do an oa treatment (spray or vape) if you want.

 

in theory the same would be possible by smart usage of a queen excluder.

 

or (good idea if mite loads are high) you just simply remove all capped brood from the hives. either shake and freeze the frames (if mite loads are high - the brood will be diseased anyway) or combine them to nucs, once all bees have hatched give them an oa treatment (spray or vape) and then either keep them separate or recombine them with the donor hives (probably not a good idea if afb is a problem in your apiaries)

 

 

  • Good Info 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could I share my recipe for a brood break this season- it is simple, add carnica and their hybrids to a persistent drought, and presto you have a brood break  in mid-March.  We always get a brood break, but not usually until at least mid-April.      Most of my nucs are broodless already, and big hives are heading that way, have never seen it happen this early.

  • Agree 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Christi An said:

the (southern) italians do a lot of brood breaking by caging the queen. but apparently the bees sometimes will try to supercede or raise emergency cells. so after the caging check for cells.

 

just some food for thought:

 

what you also could do is try and get some of these (havent seen them in nz anywhere) or build your own: https://www.imkertechnik-wagner.de/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/310x310/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/a/bannwabentasche-low2.jpg. it basically is a queen excluder cage for 1 or 2 whole frames so the queen will continue to lay. after all other brood has hatched you can simply remove and freeze the capped brood from those, that alone should remove a lot of mites. and do an oa treatment (spray or vape) if you want.

 

in theory the same would be possible by smart usage of a queen excluder.

 

or (good idea if mite loads are high) you just simply remove all capped brood from the hives. either shake and freeze the frames (if mite loads are high - the brood will be diseased anyway) or combine them to nucs, once all bees have hatched give them an oa treatment (spray or vape) and then either keep them separate or recombine them with the donor hives (probably not a good idea if afb is a problem in your apiaries)

 

We  used the same design but just a single frame wide with no frame in side as the queen cage (as mentioned above).

 

When in the UK as an apiary inspector these were the methods that we would suggest to beekeepers as part of an IPMS and they can work very well.

 

17 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

Could I share my recipe for a brood break this season- it is simple, add carnica and their hybrids to a persistent drought, and presto you have a brood break  in mid-March.  We always get a brood break, but not usually until at least mid-April.      Most of my nucs are broodless already, and big hives are heading that way, have never seen it happen this early.

I have to agree with David, I would expect a small brood break in most hives at about mid to late April, just not a long one like in Europe 

 

9 hours ago, Gino de Graaf said:

 

 what did you mean?  Queens left in too long.... 

 

They got forgotten about when the team leader went overseas for a month or three 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Gavin Smith said:

Any thoughts on how to do it ,/ Thanks

i don't think caging queens is a great approach.

You could do the following to achieve a similar end though (i haven't tried this, but have noted the brood break effect of walkaway splits on varroa build-up in hives):

1 - pull the queen out into a mini-nuc during a late-summer treatment

2 - destroy all the emergency cells

3 - add a frame of brood a couple of weeks later

4 - destroy all the emergency cells from this frame

5 - put the queen back in a few weeks later.

 

repeat something similar in late-autumn.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, David Yanke said:

Could I share my recipe for a brood break this season- it is simple, add carnica and their hybrids to a persistent drought, and presto you have a brood break  in mid-March.  We always get a brood break, but not usually until at least mid-April.      Most of my nucs are broodless already, and big hives are heading that way, have never seen it happen this early.

@David Yanke is right. Carniolans do have a brood break in late autumn/ early winter till around mid July. So if your treatments have worked in autumn, then the hive is going into winter with good healthy bees and no chance of varroa breeding through the winter months. Most of my bees are Carniolan/ Carniolan hybrids. They form a tight cluster with not much bees flying in winter months. They store a lot of nectar in the open cells in the brood area going into winter. The cluster size is not too small, so the spring build up is good with a very rapid build up. 

Edited by Jose Thayil
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't do your queen any good confining her and with the absence if the queen foot print pheromone the bees will make queen cells which can be useful.

Mel Disselkoen of OTS Queen Rearing system swears by de queening a hive on a nectar flow and letting the bees raise a new queen themselves with a little help via cell notching. He does this several times a year and never uses chemicals, he does not sell honey but makes his living selling bees from the splits he makes when he de queens his hives. He is invited to speak at Bee clubs all over the US.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...