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Frederick

Commodity Levy / Fight for the Industrys future?

RISK OF CLOSURE

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as a likely future levy payer with no vote in the current process, and not planning on being more than a very small player ever (if at all) i'm very interested in the outcome of this vote.

  1. I respect @Frederick 's preparedness to put his name to his posts, and his story. @Ali's approach is a fascinating contrast.
  2. I'd be 100% in favour of the levy if it was 1 levy payer-1 vote for the levy spend decision making. Or there was a cap on voting power. Not because i think i'd agree 100% with the spend decisions made (i doubt anyone would be), but that i'd be ok with them in a general sense due to being part of a larger grouping who had an equal say in directing the spend. Similar to democracy in general i guess. Not because i've been impressed by APINZ in any way, but because that could be changed from the inside.
  3. Any concerns i have about apinz apply equally to the other various beekeeping organisations/groups/call them what you will.
  4. Imagine a situation where a large proportion of nz honey production is foreign owned/controlled (how far off are we already, especially if we include debt to overseas owned banks), and apinz started lobbying for allowing honey imports...
     

 

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2 minutes ago, Trevor Gillbanks said:

No. The SNI group did not send the letter. We tried to find the author but had no luck. I was under the impression at one time that one of our members started beekeepersagainstapitax. But this proved to be in error

helluvah lot faster asking you for yes/no questions than apinz, and (in contrast to the other) you aren't even being paid to respond to questions on this forum :) thanks.

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2 hours ago, Frederick said:

Ali appreciate your enthusiasm but this is starting to fit into the monotonous ludicrous scaremongering category!

 

Pot, kettle ...just sayin

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4 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Pot, kettle ...just sayin

Scaremongering??

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35 minutes ago, tommy dave said:

and apinz started lobbying for allowing honey imports...

 

And who pretty much single handed funded the fight to keep imported honey out of NZ ?

The Berry’s of Arataki Honey,  

If it wasn’t for them we would be in deeper doo doo than we are now :) 

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2 minutes ago, Ted said:

Scaremongering??

 

Yes scaremongering,

A positive Yes vote scares the crap out of me 

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Just now, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Yes scaremongering,

A positive Yes vote scares the crap out of me 

Brilliant!!  Better get your adult diapers ready then.😉

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I went to the consultation meeting and suggested that levy payers should be able to apportion their levy between the organisations they choose. This to me seems fair and removes the threat of Apinz taking over the world along with the threat of the world taking over Apinz.

All this talk of working together is great but there is a lot of bad blood out there and it will not go away just because were all in the same bed.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Ali said:

.What sort of business people would we be to invest in something so risky that has a history so far of not delivering any tangible benefit?

They have dropped the ball badly in the current circumstances of the industry.

 

Ah, so you *do* blame ApiNZ for the falling honey prices Ali 😉

if I bring up your negative, repetitive and regurgitated comments then you’re going to feel I’m :

 

4 hours ago, Ali said:

 Disparaging, belittling, attempting to humiliate? 

 

. . which is sincerely not my intention. 

 

So so what is your answer Ali?  How would you raise a fairly spread sum of money to benefit the industry and what would you do with it?

 

we know you don’t want ApiNZ  . . . so let’s hear from  AliNZ instead. Go for it. 

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On 15/02/2019 at 7:06 PM, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Pot, kettle ...just sayin

Another wonderful insight Frazz you obviously have no rational opinion to add!

Again I'm not interested in childish byplay?

 

On 15/02/2019 at 7:13 PM, frazzledfozzle said:

 

And who pretty much single handed funded the fight to keep imported honey out of NZ ?

The Berry’s of Arataki Honey,  

If it wasn’t for them we would be in deeper doo doo than we are now :) 

Your point being?

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45 minutes ago, JohnF said:

 

Ah, so you *do* blame ApiNZ for the falling honey prices Ali 😉

if I bring up your negative, repetitive and regurgitated comments then you’re going to feel I’m :

 

 

. . which is sincerely not my intention. 

 

So so what is your answer Ali?  How would you raise a fairly spread sum of money to benefit the industry and what would you do with it?

 

we know you don’t want ApiNZ  . . . so let’s hear from  AliNZ instead. Go for it. 

I would far rather that APINZ and it's supporters address the issues and questions raised in an honest and forthright manner @JohnF. It seems you don't have the answers that matter to so many and quite frankly appear to rely on being a smart mouth (AliNZ?) which in my opinion only brings further discredit upon APINZ and of course yourself. Anything to distract from the real issues I feel.

 

I am not the one attempting to gain the power over the beekeepers of NZ or to take their money.

 

There has been an absolute dearth of proper response from those who should no better.

In the beginning : the membership numbers

                                the real full agenda

                                the voting weight issue

                                the business plan

                                the use of levy funds

                                the issue of packers etc

                                the inequity of contributions 

                                binding obligation 

                                hive number control 

It just goes on and on, all without full and proper reponse from APINZ or yourself for that matter.

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2 hours ago, john berry said:

I went to the consultation meeting and suggested that levy payers should be able to apportion their levy between the organisations they choose. This to me seems fair and removes the threat of Apinz taking over the world along with the threat of the world taking over Apinz.

All this talk of working together is great but there is a lot of bad blood out there and it will not go away just because were all in the same bed.

 

 

John we've both seen plenty of bad blood in the industry but are we slaves to the negative influence and nonsense of the past (and present).

This isn't a marriage made in heaven its an arrangement made for mutual benefit and the long term success of the commercial sector: You don't have to love thy neighbour (so to speak) as much co-operate for the mutual benefit of having commercial sector representatives that'll do the business.

 

Following a YES vote the commercial sector will:

  1. Control the Board (and therefor Governance) with a 5 to 3 margin.
  2. Control where the Levy goes / how it is apportioned

Hey I'm not naïve enough to think there won't be some robust debate on which overall governance of the re-tweaked APINZ or which projects and funding wins the day; but that's democracy and it'll be the Levy payers engaging in the debate and voting!

 

I don't have to tell you this industry mirrors life in general in that there are a myriad of different personality's some which just won't mesh with anyone else and that by putting your head up above the parapet no matter how rational you're message is a percentage are always going to want to shoot you down: But John that's life so join with me in a positive and co-operative approach to achieving a Yes vote and helping secure the serves of a rational professional organisation and levy structure under our (commercial sectors) governance!

 

I never forget a slight; but I'm pragmatic in my dealings (doesn't mean I'll jump into bed with anyone)

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6 hours ago, Frederick said:

Hey I'm not naïve enough to think there won't be some robust debate on which overall governance of the re-tweaked APINZ or which projects and funding wins the day; but that's democracy and it'll be the Levy payers engaging in the debate and voting!

What we have currently is what we should deal with first in my opinion. We do not have a 're-tweaked APINZ and achieving that would be a battle if the levy proposal goes through.

First things first.

If APINZ were to be re modelled (quite considerably) prior to a levy vote I am sure it would be a positive for us all.

Meanwhile we are faced with an organisation that is unsatisfactory to many and insists on pressing on for the good of that organisation and it's small percentage of followers.

There is only one effective way currently to express dissatisfaction and that is the NO vote. Only then APINZ may actually listen to the majority of NZ beekeepers and make some changes to it's structure.

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On 15/02/2019 at 10:14 PM, Frederick said:

Your point being?

 

My point is where were Apinz/ NBA ? 

My point being no levy involved .

My point being that single act alone is probably the most important thing that has happened for NZ beekeepers.

 

Were you beekeeping then ?

 

On 15/02/2019 at 10:13 PM, Frederick said:

Another wonderful insight Frazz you obviously have no rational opinion to add!

Again I'm not interested in childish byplay?

 

Really ?

 

Quote

What we have currently is what we should deal with first in my opinion. We do not have a 're-tweaked APINZ and achieving that would be a battle if the levy proposal goes through.

 

This is also my thinking.

I don’t believe anything will be tweaked at Apinz I think things will stay the same.

the talk of commercials being the main overseers doesn’t I still any confidence in me as corporates are also classed as commercial and because of sheer size will have the upper hand when it comes time for voting.

 

I have no confidence in Apinz to look after the small guy because that’s not where the money is.

Corporates are responsible for most of the damaging practices over the past few years.

The only reason they are in it is Manuka.

Where were the corporates before Manuka ?

how many are owned by off shore syndicates ?

 

Im sure they don’t care about non Manuka honey or over crowding they are more inclined towards planting Manuka plantations using government subsidies ( and probably our levy money )

 

It must be a wonderful feeling to have a job where you don’t need to work for that income yourself you just send out an invoice and the money rolls in.

 

Anyone who has other peoples money to spend often doesn’t take the same care and deliberation with spending it as the person who’s graft earned that money would.

 

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1 hour ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

My point is where were Apinz/ NBA ? 

My point being no levy involved .

My point being that single act alone is probably the most important thing that has happened for NZ beekeepers.

 

Were you beekeeping then ?

Frazz I first dealt with Percy and Ian Berry selling them Clover in 1977/78 season; my father was an Apiary inspector / Advisory Officer from the 1950s - 1980's: I've been bought up amongst and discussing and working in the industry for decades: I'm well aware of the Arataki/Berry contribution which I applaud and are very much appreciative of Russells influence in all things beekeeping inclusive NZ Beekeeping Inc. right up to now.

I just don't wish to encourage you to quote endless pointless gibes unrelated to the Levy debate

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I am now very certain Frazzled is anti 'corporate beekeeping', but I am not sure how they have it defined.

Secondly they have not been following what is happening and has always happened in other primary industries.

If any Beekeeper moves from a hobbiest to a sole trader or partnership to a registered company, are they not beoming a corporate?

NZ has a growing number of hobby beekeepers - who are a great bunch and cooperate together.

Overseas ownership has been a partner in NZ since we knocked down the bush and started pasture farming, whether it was banks, buyers of wool, meat, flax, seed, grain and timber etc.

When I worked at the Freezing Works in the 70s the big ones were owned by Vestey's, CWS and Borthwicks - all UK based corporates.

The NZer's took them over and many went bust or closed them down - Waitaki. Tomoana, Longburn as examples.

The grape & wine industry around Marlborough is majority overseas owned. Most of our pine forests are overseas owned today.

Overseas participation is to be expected in our Beekeeping industry as it is a growth industry and it will continue. 

 

Api NZ does care about the small Beekeeper, even the hobbiest.

That is why they actively engage in submissions against certain pesticide use, set up Beekeeping training prgrammes (all beekeepers want new young knowledgable staff), biosecurity watchdog activity, understand changes to the Food Act, bee research, introduction of controls that will support all beekeepers (the intro of a predator for GWA).

Above all Api NZ requires new folk who are knowledgable and ready to make change in this industry.

Preferably young, visionary, motivated to succeed and well qualified.

Our future is not going to be old grey haired codgers like me. It will be determined by young new beekeepers who will shape the idnsurties future.

We need Research & Science to support those changes and that has to be funded.

Therefore it is going to be a small cost for all commercial beekeepers. 

 

 

Edited by Don Mac

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As we all know you can’t compare corporate owned forests and vineyards with beekeeping as they are completely different.

one uses the resources of their own land that no one else can encroach on so no effect to their bottom line if the whole valley is vineyards.

 

Beekeeping relies on sharing resources which Does have an effect on the bottom line if Some choose to ignore the effect of overstocking .

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34 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

As we all know you can’t compare corporate owned forests and vineyards with beekeeping as they are completely different.

one uses the resources of their own land that no one else can encroach on so no effect to their bottom line if the whole valley is vineyards.

 

Beekeeping relies on sharing resources which Does have an effect on the bottom line if Some choose to ignore the effect of overstocking .

Oh I don't know, there're lots of examples all over the south where foreign owned pine trees shed their seed left right & centre and start whole new plantations where they're not wanted..

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This process has been very destructive and spit beekeeping into 3  camps the yes vote the no  vote  the guys in the middle not knowing what to do😕

No matter what happens we are still going to be divided and disappointed at the result and for long after .

If a yes vote  time will tell if ApiNZ fulfill everyone dreams or benefits just a few at everyone's expense.

If a no vote we need a new plan that for beekeeper only .

For me and most beekeeper I speak to marketing is no 1 atm

 

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To help clarify the perspective I’m coming from I’ll quote my history both generally and in the LEVY process:

You can access various Levy Forums I’ve either initiated or posted in as follows:

  • Honey industry like 'wild west', minister says   By Frederick, July 28, 2018

  • ApiNZ Commodity Levy Proposal   By ApiNZ Levy Proposal, August 6, 2018             

  • Back the truck up APINZ    By Frederick, August 17, 2018                                                                                                                                                                                               

  • APINZ and the Commodity Levy: The great leap forward?  By Frederick, September 3, 2018

You’ll see in the past I’ve been pretty scathing of various aspects of APINZ general operations and their direction re: Levy proposal!

In August 18 I surveyed 36 commercial beekeepers representing over 74000 hives (200-9000 hive operations) to ascertain what the sector thought! The result was a resounding NO to the initial Levy proposal on the table at the time!

 

I’m non-aligned from any group and won’t be bound by any party line in what I say but I do have a passion for the success of the commercial sector.

 

I started commercial beekeeping at a time when some commercial operations in my area were walking away from hives and leaving then to rot into the ground and from time to time I’ve struggle to turn a buck and keep going; but hell we’ve had some fun along the way!

 

I currently farm 1300 hives with my two sons and two workers and have invested in 4000 acres of backcountry to solidify our future: I’ve had old family friends/associates screw us over for a handful of wintering and manuka sites and some new entrants to the industry show even less respect.

 

I spent 3 years helping Manuka Health establish their supplier network and bought honey, mentored new entrants and old hands wanting new perspectives.

 

Effectively I’ve got meat in the game with a little experience behind me!

 

Following the Levy consultation round I was impressed by the alterations APINZ put forward. Effectively they are facilitating:

 

  • The ability for the Commercial sector to control governance of the organisation following a YES vote with 5 out of 8 seats on the board.                                                                                     

                                                       and ensuring

 

  • Only those paying the Levy will direct where the levy is spent

 

Bluntly I don’t want another bill or tax (call it what you like) but I’m prepared to put my hand up and pay this levy and back the re-tweaked APINZ (for that is what will happen following a YES vote).

 

Some of my associates and those I surveyed back in August will likely fall off the chairs and spit out their coffee when they read this and acknowledge I’m passionately advocating a YES vote but effectively when somethings presented on a platter for you which has the ability to push this fantastic, grassroots, family orientated industry forward collectively (with a bit of spunk and grit courtesy of the commercial dominance) I say give it a chance and grab it with both hands.

 

I have friends and associates who oppose the levy and I certainly won’t demean their good intentions, but it’s time to stand up, take a fresh look and vote YES for the good of the commercial sector moving forward!

 

Looking forward to a positive industry future

 

Keith Rodie

Edited by Frederick
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6 hours ago, Ali said:

What we have currently is what we should deal with first in my opinion. We do not have a 're-tweaked APINZ and achieving that would be a battle if the levy proposal goes through.

First things first.

If APINZ were to be re modelled (quite considerably) prior to a levy vote I am sure it would be a positive for us all.

Meanwhile we are faced with an organisation that is unsatisfactory to many and insists on pressing on for the good of that organisation and it's small percentage of followers.

There is only one effective way currently to express dissatisfaction and that is the NO vote. Only then APINZ may actually listen to the majority of NZ beekeepers and make some changes to it's structure.

Ali following a YES vote an election of APINZ board members will take place with 5 of the 8  seats in the new board going to the Commercial sector: This will facilitate the new board having ability to re-tweak (for want of a better word) APINZ in the manner in which they wish.

Voting NO to both express dissatisfaction and somehow achieve change to APINZ when a YES vote delivers what you asking for, is simply naïve balderdash. 

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21 minutes ago, Frederick said:

To help clarify the perspective I’m coming from I’ll quote my history both generally and in the LEVY process:

You can access various Levy Forums I’ve either initiated or posted in as follows:

  • Honey industry like 'wild west', minister says   By Frederick, July 28, 2018

  • ApiNZ Commodity Levy Proposal   By ApiNZ Levy Proposal, August 6, 2018             

  • Back the truck up APINZ    By Frederick, August 17, 2018                                                                                                                                                                                               

  • APINZ and the Commodity Levy: The great leap forward?  By Frederick, September 3, 2018

You’ll see in the past I’ve been pretty scathing of various aspects of APINZ general operations and their direction re: Levy proposal!

In August 18 I surveyed 36 commercial beekeepers representing over 74000 hives (200-9000 hive operations) to ascertain what the sector thought! The result was a resounding NO to the initial Levy proposal on the table at the time!

 

I’m non-aligned from any group and won’t be bound by any party line in what I say but I do have a passion for the success of the commercial sector.

 

I started commercial beekeeping at a time when some commercial operations in my area were walking away from hives and leaving then to rot into the ground and from time to time I’ve struggle to turn a buck and keep going; but hell we’ve had some fun along the way!

 

I currently farm 1300 hives with my two sons and two workers and have invested in 4000 acres of backcountry to solidify our future: I’ve had old family friends/associates screw us over for a handful of wintering and manuka sites and some new entrants to the industry show even less respect.

 

I spent 3 years helping Manuka Health establish their supplier network and bought honey, mentored new entrants and old hands wanting new perspectives.

 

Effectively I’ve got meat in the game with a little experience behind me!

 

Following the Levy consultation round I was impressed by the alterations APINZ put forward. Effectively they are facilitating:

 

  • The ability for the Commercial sector to control governance of the organisation following a YES vote with 5 out of 8 seats on the board.                                                                                     

                                                       and ensuring

 

  • Only those paying the Levy will direct where the levy is spent

 

Bluntly I don’t want another bill or tax (call it what you like) but I’m prepared to put my hand up and pay this levy and back the re-tweaked APINZ (for that is what will happen following a YES vote).

 

Some of my associates and those I surveyed back in August will likely fall off the chairs and spit out their coffee when they read this and acknowledge I’m passionately advocating a YES vote but effectively when somethings presented on a platter for you which has the ability to push this fantastic, grassroots, family orientated industry forward collectively (with a bit of spunk and grit courtesy of the commercial dominance) I say give it a chance and grab it with both hands.

 

I have friends and associates who oppose the levy and I certainly won’t demean their good intentions, but it’s time to stand up, take a fresh look and vote YES for the good of the commercial sector moving forward!

 

Looking forward to a positive industry future

 

Keith Rodie

 

While I don’t agree with your push for a yes vote I really like this post and hope it turns out how you envision it .

Edited by frazzledfozzle
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10 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

While I don’t agree with your push for a yes vote I really like this post and hope it turns out how you envision it .

Thanks Frazz

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15 hours ago, Ali said:

I would far rather that APINZ and it's supporters address the issues and questions raised in an honest and forthright manner @JohnF. It seems you don't have the answers that matter to so many and quite frankly appear to rely on being a smart mouth (AliNZ?) which in my opinion only brings further discredit upon APINZ and of course yourself.I

 

I am involved with the research aspects Ali - I have provided plenty of answers, not only to the benefits of research to an industry but to the apiculture industry itself. What have you done for the industry?

 

15 hours ago, Ali said:

There has been an absolute dearth of proper response from those who should no better.

In the beginning : the membership numbers

                                the real full agenda

                                the voting weight issue

                                the business plan

                                the use of levy funds

                                the issue of packers etc

                                the inequity of contributions 

                                binding obligation 

                                hive number control 

It just goes on and on, all without full and proper reponse from APINZ or yourself for that matter.

 

No, not playing your game Ali. 

In short, you’re a troll.: provoking response just to say ‘ won’t work, don’t trust you’, ad nauseum. 

 

Read the levy documents or re-read the threads and you’ll see all the answers. Just checking your list again and . . . yep, . . .all of them. 

And keep a sense of humour as well AliNZ - look forward to something constructive. 

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17 minutes ago, JohnF said:

 

I am involved with the research aspects Ali - I have provided plenty of answers, not only to the benefits of research to an industry but to the apiculture industry itself. What have you done for the industry?

 

 

No, not playing your game Ali. 

In short, you’re a troll.: provoking response just to say ‘ won’t work, don’t trust you’, ad nauseum. 

 

Read the levy documents or re-read the threads and you’ll see all the answers. Just checking your list again and . . . yep, . . .all of them. 

And keep a sense of humour as well AliNZ - look forward to something constructive. 

I'm more inclined to wonder where Ali's underlying message is coming from John

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