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Commodity Levy / Fight for the Industrys future?

RISK OF CLOSURE

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19 minutes ago, CraBee said:
This indecision's bugging me
If you don't want me, set me free 
Exactly whom I'm supposed to be 
Don't you know which clothes even fit me?
Come on and let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow? 
Split

Well, all I can say all this indecision's bugging me so much, that if I don't Split now I will go into a coma and sustain a premature death from boredom.  Before that happens I am "letting you know" I'm going to hit the sack now, cos it's goin to be 35 degrees here tomorrow and I am just "letting you know that I won't be cool". 

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43 minutes ago, JohnF said:

 

Haters gonna hate Dave . . . . and trolls are gonna troll. 

However i dont think the “you are now perpetuating lies and mis-truths” is fair . . . ie, at least the word ‘now’ - as I pinged AliNZ on that quite some time ago and reiterated it a few days ago. 

Why do I find you such an abusive man @JohnF ? Do you carry on like this to everyone who asks direct questions and expects direct answers?

The hate campaign here John is pretty much led by you.

Why don't you just cut it out.

It has become outright internet bullying. Put an end to it @JohnF.

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The whole topics got unnecessarily ugly .

 

Im not taking sides or pointing the finger at anyone .

 

Surely by now this whole things been thrashed to death .

Most will have formed their own opinions .......

 

One thing is for certain . There are new participants contributing to the forum which is great, but how’s about we keep it above board and with good tone . 

 

 

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On 14/02/2019 at 10:39 PM, Frederick said:

Again negative input of no substance which does nothing to clarify things!

I Repeat:

The fact is the commercial sectors sitting on a once in a lifetime opurtuntiy to take the professional organisation that is APINZ by the scruff of the neck and mould it into something that will deliver result to the industry for the foreseeable future!

I am only up to page 5 and this debate is seeming to continue with much the same tone getting considerably more personal as we go along.

The way I see it, we all vote how we like, end of story.

So there’s not really any point in slinging mud in either direction.

 

You can say Yes, or you can say No.

Saying the people who say yes are naive or the people who say no are doom and gloom is pretty childish.

 

We all have a different stake in this industry but it is clear that we all care very much about it otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

 

Keep it polite.

That goes for everyone.

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Right. Page 13. Finally.

It is late, but my kid seems to like waking up every hour so it’s not like I’d be sleeping anyway.

 

This thread was painful to read, I respect Keith a great deal and while I have never actually met him I think he is a thoroughly nice guy.

I also know John F and he has always been lovely and friendly to deal with.

It is sad to see people being attacked and criticised for having an opinion, I actually don’t feel the need to justify my choices to strangers on the internet but I can give it a go because I think it helps to create a balanced argument.

 

Vote No.

APINZ may or may not have mine, my fellow beekeepers who make a living from beekeeping - regardless of size, and my bees best interests at heart, to assume that they do is a fanciful notion but considering they have done nothing to endear non-members to them and expect everyone to come to them via their material leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Not that long ago I would have been willing to join APINZ, however I was put off by what I considered to be overly steep membership costs with very little if any benefits other than a glossy magazine filled with advertising that I didn’t have the time to read.

 

I refuse to willingly front 10 cents per kilo of my hard earned money to pay a levy that may or may not be well spent.

That 10 cents to me is a lot of money considering I have to pay it upfront before I have been paid myself.

 

I really love beekeeping, but I really hate politics and stupid rules and regulations that do nothing for the safety of our product.

 

I believe APINZ really let us down with the MPI Manuka definition and I believed this was their time to shine, the industry basically stalled, which may or may not have happened anyway, but the point is, why weren’t our advocates advocating, it made me quite happy to not be paying them any money that I didn’t have.

 

Both sides of this argument have been 100% what if’s.

While I definitely admire taking a positive stance, and I would hope that this was the case, life experiences in general tell me that if there is a chance it can go wrong it probably will.

The simple fact is, we don’t know what will happen if the levy goes through.

 

To me, the safer option is to continue on the path we are currently on where a heap of people are going broke and beekeeping is getting less and less profitable.

Sure, it sucks to work for nothing, but I think it’s worse to work for something and have it taken off you by someone who hasn’t earnt it.

 

I believe there are hundreds of very intelligent people out there working on more beehives and learning from what is happening right in front of them on a scale that could not be recreated by any research.

Because when you are working on hundreds if not thousands of beehives you will see natural variation unlike anything that could be recreated by researchers.

I have a hoodie that says “Beekeeper, I do precision guesswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge” obviously this is not true of all research, but a case study on 50 hives? I’m not even going to waste my time.

I look at more hives than that in a days work, I visit those hives regularly, and I take notice of every little thing happening and generally I know what I’m looking at.

 

Research is the carrot because not a single person can outright say we don’t need research, without it we wouldn’t have varroa controls, but I would go as far to say that quite often it’s common sense based.

 

I had a hive that I provided samples for, I was surprised to see how apparently sick it was on paper - nosema x2 and lotmaria, ay varying degrees and times during the study.

I found it very interesting.

It still went on to produce 3 FD boxes of honey and I would eat my hat if I couldn’t fix it with 2 frames of brood, a new queen, and a placeswap unfortunately I didn’t have the cash to pay for extra testing at the time to test my theory.

 

I can fix sick hives just like these, as can many beekeepers with the time to do so.

I don’t really care why they’re sick, as long as it’s not AFB, perhaps if it was the majority of my hives I might feel differently.

Generally the amount of time and resources from other hives spent doing so makes it easier to just make another hive.

And if you keep your hives strong then they don’t get sick, this is also easy, don’t get greedy.

 

I am happy to admit what I know is only a drop in the ocean, I enjoy learning and there is always more to learn, and I am happy to admit when I am wrong.

 

Paying for research is a smart move, even if some of it is not helpful and has zero practical application, even if you only get one useful bit in 10.

 

What I don’t like, is paying for all of these other things.

 

The thing with this levy is that it is incredibly flexible, some people might think this is a positive aspect, I see it as a liability.

I have zero faith in anyone getting such a large sum of money without an exact knowledge of what they are going to do with it, and to know that if I am unhappy then I will be stuck with it for some number of years without much chance to do anything about it.

 

Now is certainly the time to ask questions and to be suspicious, call me what you like, I consider myself to be incredibly risk adverse some people might say that I was negative, that’s fine, maybe I am.

But until I can be told unequivocally where my money is going then it’s a No from me.

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7 hours ago, Daley said:

Right. Page 13. Finally.

It is late, but my kid seems to like waking up every hour so it’s not like I’d be sleeping anyway.

 

This thread was painful to read, I respect Keith a great deal and while I have never actually met him I think he is a thoroughly nice guy.

I also know John F and he has always been lovely and friendly to deal with.

It is sad to see people being attacked and criticised for having an opinion, I actually don’t feel the need to justify my choices to strangers on the internet but I can give it a go because I think it helps to create a balanced argument.

 

Vote No.

APINZ may or may not have mine, my fellow beekeepers who make a living from beekeeping - regardless of size, and my bees best interests at heart, to assume that they do is a fanciful notion but considering they have done nothing to endear non-members to them and expect everyone to come to them via their material leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Not that long ago I would have been willing to join APINZ, however I was put off by what I considered to be overly steep membership costs with very little if any benefits other than a glossy magazine filled with advertising that I didn’t have the time to read.

 

I refuse to willingly front 10 cents per kilo of my hard earned money to pay a levy that may or may not be well spent.

That 10 cents to me is a lot of money considering I have to pay it upfront before I have been paid myself.

 

I really love beekeeping, but I really hate politics and stupid rules and regulations that do nothing for the safety of our product.

 

I believe APINZ really let us down with the MPI Manuka definition and I believed this was their time to shine, the industry basically stalled, which may or may not have happened anyway, but the point is, why weren’t our advocates advocating, it made me quite happy to not be paying them any money that I didn’t have.

 

Both sides of this argument have been 100% what if’s.

While I definitely admire taking a positive stance, and I would hope that this was the case, life experiences in general tell me that if there is a chance it can go wrong it probably will.

The simple fact is, we don’t know what will happen if the levy goes through.

 

To me, the safer option is to continue on the path we are currently on where a heap of people are going broke and beekeeping is getting less and less profitable.

Sure, it sucks to work for nothing, but I think it’s worse to work for something and have it taken off you by someone who hasn’t earnt it.

 

I believe there are hundreds of very intelligent people out there working on more beehives and learning from what is happening right in front of them on a scale that could not be recreated by any research.

Because when you are working on hundreds if not thousands of beehives you will see natural variation unlike anything that could be recreated by researchers.

I have a hoodie that says “Beekeeper, I do precision guesswork based on unreliable data provided by those of questionable knowledge” obviously this is not true of all research, but a case study on 50 hives? I’m not even going to waste my time.

I look at more hives than that in a days work, I visit those hives regularly, and I take notice of every little thing happening and generally I know what I’m looking at.

 

Research is the carrot because not a single person can outright say we don’t need research, without it we wouldn’t have varroa controls, but I would go as far to say that quite often it’s common sense based.

 

I had a hive that I provided samples for, I was surprised to see how apparently sick it was on paper - nosema x2 and lotmaria, ay varying degrees and times during the study.

I found it very interesting.

It still went on to produce 3 FD boxes of honey and I would eat my hat if I couldn’t fix it with 2 frames of brood, a new queen, and a placeswap unfortunately I didn’t have the cash to pay for extra testing at the time to test my theory.

 

I can fix sick hives just like these, as can many beekeepers with the time to do so.

I don’t really care why they’re sick, as long as it’s not AFB, perhaps if it was the majority of my hives I might feel differently.

Generally the amount of time and resources from other hives spent doing so makes it easier to just make another hive.

And if you keep your hives strong then they don’t get sick, this is also easy, don’t get greedy.

 

I am happy to admit what I know is only a drop in the ocean, I enjoy learning and there is always more to learn, and I am happy to admit when I am wrong.

 

Paying for research is a smart move, even if some of it is not helpful and has zero practical application, even if you only get one useful bit in 10.

 

What I don’t like, is paying for all of these other things.

 

The thing with this levy is that it is incredibly flexible, some people might think this is a positive aspect, I see it as a liability.

I have zero faith in anyone getting such a large sum of money without an exact knowledge of what they are going to do with it, and to know that if I am unhappy then I will be stuck with it for some number of years without much chance to do anything about it.

 

Now is certainly the time to ask questions and to be suspicious, call me what you like, I consider myself to be incredibly risk adverse some people might say that I was negative, that’s fine, maybe I am.

But until I can be told unequivocally where my money is going then it’s a No from me.

While I'm not keen on being referred to as a 'nice guy' (you'll ruin my image) this is one of the most genuinely positive posts I've read in the Levy debate.

 

A while back I was adamantly a NO voter for a variety of reasons some touched on here, many touched on elsewhere in this forum; then I took a step back, analysed the debate and looked at the options and didn't like the future I saw without a collective yes vote.

 

I decided to see what I could do to open up debate from the perspective of all sides ultimately gaining what they're looking for under the umbrella of a commercial dominated organisation.

 

APINZ's history to date hasn't been what I envisaged when I first to backed the unified organisation: They've been in a major learning curve and haven't delivered what a lot of commercial BK's were looking for hence myself and plenty of others voting with their feet: BUT FOLKS this wasn't by design, this wasn't an attempt by anyone to dominate anyone, it wasn't anti industry it was a learning curve bought about by the wrong initial board structure which set it well on the wrong track.

 

The adjustment in the levy proposal to a commercial sector dominated board following a yes vote will deliver the structure I originally hoped APINZ would deliver; that is the ability of all entities within the commercial sector to gain representation on the board (by voting blocks if need be) and for the collective commercial representation to effectively send APINZ along a new path predominately exploring and working for the success of the commercial sector.

 

This is why I'm vehemently opposed to dredging up negative aspects of everyone's interpretation of the APINZ past incorporating  the anti corporate view (they're part of the industry and here to stay) etc in this forum. We've all been down this road ad infinitum.

 

All I've asked is that you consider the option of working together under one umbrella (call it what you like but lets stick with APINZ) for the future of the industry.

  • The new board (commercial sector dominated) will be able to shape APINZ governance
  • Levy payers will able to structure and control the direction of levy expenditure

Some posts in this forum have blamed APINZ for all the ills and negative events since their inception stopping just short of general plague, petulance and the Kaikoura earthquake and while others have said they're over the negative discussion and personalities, this will always occur when passionate people debate and the other ###### won't agree with them.

 

Folks while I'm over the politics of it! I don't want to go endless rounds where we spar incessantly and then sometime in the future after a lot of antagonism and heartache end up with what's available to us on a platter now!

 

Good luck and good voting

 

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13 hours ago, Ali said:

Why do I find you such an abusive man @JohnF ? Do you carry on like this to everyone who asks direct questions and expects direct answers?

The hate campaign here John is pretty much led by you.

Why don't you just cut it out.

It has become outright internet bullying. Put an end to it @JohnF.

So here’s a direct question and I expect a direct answer.  How many hives do you own??

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3 minutes ago, Ted said:

So here’s a direct question and I expect a direct answer.  How many hives do you own??

I wouldn’t answer that question if you asked it of me.

Your either commercial or your not but leave it at that.

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33 minutes ago, Daley said:

Your either commercial or your not but leave it at that.

It's a shame everyone isn't up front with their forum registration status. The urge to ask you doesn't arise because you're up front. I too could rant on and on but don't because it's actually none of my hobbyist business.

Edited by yesbut
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1 hour ago, Ted said:

So here’s a direct question and I expect a direct answer.  How many hives do you own??

I'd encourage you to desist from this line of questioning Ted: Its inconsequential in the scheme of things

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11 hours ago, Daley said:

 

It is sad to see people being attacked and criticised for having an opinion, I actually don’t feel the need to justify my choices to strangers on the internet but I can give it a go because I think it helps to create a balanced argument.

 

 

A very good post @Daley 

A couple of things its raises with me

 - I am not attacking anyone for having an opinion. What I do not like is repeated asking of the same questions that have been repeatedly answered. To keep asking the same questions is to try and tie up peoples' time to keep answering the same questions. This (to me) is trolling. If Ali will indeed be a levy payer or otherwise be involved with the levy, and will explain considered views (as I believe I have done, Keith has done, Trevor for SNI has done . . . and now you have done) then I will apologise for any offence taken.

 

But one apology is to @Sailabee I think, who was the only one who answered about the Cororapa question I posed. Your comment about the nosemas and lotmaria from @TammyW's work Daley made me realise I never followed on (research benefit for those that want to skip to next post)

 

11 hours ago, Daley said:

 

Paying for research is a smart move, even if some of it is not helpful and has zero practical application, even if you only get one useful bit in 10.

 

 

So some of the most practical and useful research that I've seen in a long time is from Plant and Food on this nosema issue, together with a member of (dare I say it . .OK then) @ApiNZ Science & Research who's a commercial beekeeper. Many will have heard it - some may not have - : the comb sterilisation method. But more recent data shows the benefits in honey production - a 15% increase. (Yes, I know that many are struggling to sell honey currently) but in previous years that might have been 15% HONEY INCREASE !

 

I fully agree with the corollary to your statement - research paid for by beekeepers must be helpful and have practical application. And that's why the 15% honey increase sticks in my mind.

 

11 hours ago, Daley said:

 

To me, the safer option is to continue on the path we are currently on where a heap of people are going broke and beekeeping is getting less and less profitable.

 

 

One of the purposes of the levy when first proposed was to help build a sustainable industry - sustainable through the period of growth  eg marketing, research, product benefits etc.

It could be argued then, are we too late? But if not now, when? When honey production is higher, levies are higher as a result and people don't want to part with higher dollars? It seems it's like the whole consultation/voting 'best time' for beekeepers  . . . . . there is no best time. There is only now.

 

Just vote

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20 minutes ago, Daley said:

I wouldn’t answer that question if you asked it of me.

Your either commercial or your not but leave it at that.

With power comes responsibility.

Ali has a degree of power in that she is appears to be intelligent and plausible.
In light of this observation the question I ask myself is,
Does Ali have a mandate to debate so strongly on behalf of the no camp

How many hives does this person have?
 

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1 hour ago, Frederick said:

I'd encourage you to desist from this line of questioning Ted: Its inconsequential in the scheme of things

I disagree - perhaps I could have worded it better as @Daley suggested or possibly by asking if the levy comes in does she own enough hives/produce enough honey to be obligated to pay.  My concern is one person with extreme views on corporates has dominated this whole debate and may well not even have skin in the game (she won’t confirm despite being asked numerous times) so as @yesbut suggested is not morally entitled to be so vocal and influencing on the subject.  If she will be required to pay a levy she is absolutely entitled to voice her opinion however it is a bit rich for her to demand straight answers to straight questions when she won’t answer questions put to her.

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I just deleted my previous post because I thought it wasn’t going to help in the situation but now after this one I’m going to say that @JohnF has been a very vocal proponent for the yes vote but is probably not going to be a levy payer and in fact being a researcher may even reap financial rewards from a levy .

 

I like what @Ali has to say and I don’t consider the views extreme at all.

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1 minute ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I just deleted my previous post because I thought it wasn’t going to help in the situation but now after this one I’m going to say that @JohnF has been a very vocal proponent for the yes vote but is probably not going to be a levy payer and in fact being a researcher may even reap financial rewards from a levy .

 

I like what @Ali has to say and I don’t consider the views extreme at all.

Fair call regarding @JohnF .  Perhaps he would like to comment on his proposed levy payer status??  It might encourage @Ali to do the same.😉

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I would hate to think that anyone couldn't comment on any subject in this forum . Both scientists and hobbyists have more time to look , study and learn than a lot of commercial beekeepers.

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Is Ali a guy or gal?

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14 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Is Ali a guy or gal?

What's gender got to do with it ?

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1 minute ago, yesbut said:

What's gender got to do with it ?

It’s all about mental pictures 

Errors have been made before .....

 

Otherwise , totally irrelevant .

 

As you were 

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52 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I just deleted my previous post because I thought it wasn’t going to help in the situation but now after this one I’m going to say that @JohnF has been a very vocal proponent for the yes vote but is probably not going to be a levy payer and in fact being a researcher may even reap financial rewards from a levy .

 

47 minutes ago, Ted said:

Fair call regarding @JohnF .  Perhaps he would like to comment on his proposed levy payer status??  It might encourage @Ali to do the same.😉

 

Sure guys - but sorry to repeat it again:

https://www.nzbees.net/forums/topic/12282-are-you-a-member-of-apinz/?do=findComment&comment=210872  (part way through)

 

I am a hobbiest. Re: levy funds and being a researcher. As stated before also, there is a conflict of interest there as I'm a member of the ApiNZ Science & Research group (no financial remuneration, in fact its hours of expense instead - even more for others in the group)

 

Our lab has used money generated from our commercial bee pathogen testing (plus other funds) to fund various R&D into things such as varroa resistance to flumethrins, AFB detection and other work. None of it funded by those that would potentially benefit ie all beekeepers. Again, repeating from previous posts but fair enough, you asked again Frazz.

 

Edited by JohnF
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We’ve been assured the levy funds will be decided by weighted vote, which I can understand. However the voting papers say the commercial reps will decide on the research spend so For me it all comes down to ‘can I trust the board members to look after my interests’.

without knowing who would stand for election how can I answer that. 

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@nikki watts Yes Board representatives put together investment proposals.  These are then voted on by levy payers.  There are over 30 other commodity levies in the country, this is fairly standard practice.  The Commodity Levies Act has strong accountability mechanisms built into it. We do recommend you read the material before you vote.  There is comprehensive information on our website www.apinz.org.nz/levy 

 

In the event of a ‘Yes’ vote, the levy payers will be asked to vote and elect all five commercial representatives on the Board (and who would be confirmed at the 2020 AGM).  ApiNZ has taken this approach as we wanted to ensure a fully transparent and accountable process that would ensure the levy payers have the opportunity to vote for their preferred candidates to sit on the new Board.  

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38 minutes ago, ApiNZ Levy Proposal said:

In the event of a ‘Yes’ vote, the levy payers will be asked to vote and elect all five commercial representatives on the Board (and who would be confirmed at the 2020 AGM).  ApiNZ has taken this approach as we wanted to ensure a fully transparent and accountable process that would ensure the levy payers have the opportunity to vote for their preferred candidates to sit on the new Board.  

I understand that. Thanks.  All fair and above board.

What happens with the four other board members (the packer/etc reps).  How/when are they reduced to  three.

I understand that there is no need to replace the Hobby rep as that position stays the same as the current structure.

 

Thanks

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12 minutes ago, Trevor Gillbanks said:

I understand that. Thanks.  All fair and above board.

What happens with the four other board members (the packer/etc reps).  How/when are they reduced to  three.

I understand that there is no need to replace the Hobby rep as that position stays the same as the current structure.

  

Thanks

Or does the whole board stand down in 2020, including the non commercial sector rep?

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