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Philbee

Chronic re invasion is a Myth?

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1 hour ago, Trevor Gillbanks said:

I don't think the year will have a 2 in it.  Does that narrow it down enough

1997(no 2 in it), the year Rinderer first brought Primorsky Honey Bees to the U.S., after their research had shown that the Apis mellifera population there were tolerant of Varroa D., and could exist treatment free.

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I would be interested to know what the production expectations were for the breeding program that produced tolerant bees
Also, what were the general production capabilities of the Bees that adapted themselves to tolerance

Also, were both these groups similar in their general temperament and production tendencies.

It's likely that by adding the expectation of reasonable production and temperament to an already difficult criteria the chances of success diminish rapidly 

 

Edited by Philbee

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

1997(no 2 in it), the year Rinderer first brought Primorsky Honey Bees to the U.S., after their research had shown that the Apis mellifera population there were tolerant of Varroa D., and could exist treatment free.

 

So that means USA will be treatment free by when?

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19 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

So that means USA will be treatment free by when?

Same year as we have world peace.  What a stupid statement.  Again great attitude.

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8 hours ago, David Yanke said:

This century, breeding  efforts have continued and there are lots of examples of people beekeeping treatment free.  As for NZ and with attitudes like yours- it will never happen. 

It's not a question of attitude, it's my  reality . I'm open to working on my attitude if you feel able to offer some direction relevant  to my 3 hive hobbyist state ! 

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I fear that most of those overseas varoa tolerant bees would succumb to varoa if brought to New Zealand as we have an extended breeding season compared to most other beekeeping regions. Having said that fully varoa tolerant bees have been bred in New Zealand on several occasions. This year I will be using a daughter Queen from a friends breeding program. My daughter Queen is not 100% tolerant by any means but it is a lot better than my current stock and any drop in varoa numbers as a bonus. Varroa treatments are both a boon and a curse, if there had never been any effective varroa treatments I'm sure we would have overcome the problem by now.

I am convinced the destruction of feral hives by varoa has markedly increased the availability of nectar full stop.

It may be that economically we are better off with varoa .???

 

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25 minutes ago, john berry said:

I fear that most of those overseas varoa tolerant bees would succumb to varoa if brought to New Zealand as we have an extended breeding season compared to most other beekeeping regions. Having said that fully varoa tolerant bees have been bred in New Zealand on several occasions. This year I will be using a daughter Queen from a friends breeding program. My daughter Queen is not 100% tolerant by any means but it is a lot better than my current stock and any drop in varoa numbers as a bonus. Varroa treatments are both a boon and a curse, if there had never been any effective varroa treatments I'm sure we would have overcome the problem by now.

I am convinced the destruction of feral hives by varoa has markedly increased the availability of nectar full stop.

It may be that economically we are better off with varoa .???

 

I agree, do we ever want a feral population like, and of the size, we had here pre-varroa. Tolerant bees would see the inevitable return of the ferals much more quickly.

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3 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

I agree, do we ever want a feral population like, and of the size, we had here pre-varroa. Tolerant bees would see the inevitable return of the ferals much more quickly.

The russian bees would have a long breed break . Maybe 4 or 5 months .

I wonder how many varroa would be left in the hive and how long they would take to build up .

 In A short intense season with long daylight hours The Honey production maybe great .

But i Agree with @john berry Our conditions are very different and it would not work here .

 

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Holy Cow @john berry
IMO there are two flaws in your rationales
Firstly if Varroa had been left unchecked its highly likely that our managed  Hives would have disappeared at the same rate as the ferals.

Secondly, with regard the economic benefits  of maintaining Varroa  as a means of controlling the ferals,  this is really flawed as while we were appeasing the Varroa for the benefit of nectar availability we would be seeing the Varroa evolving into a monster that would eventually destroy all the Bees and the entire agricultural sector.
 

 

Edited by Philbee

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1 hour ago, john berry said:

I fear that most of those overseas varoa tolerant bees would succumb to varoa if brought to New Zealand as we have an extended breeding season compared to most other beekeeping regions. Having said that fully varoa tolerant bees have been bred in New Zealand on several occasions. This year I will be using a daughter Queen from a friends breeding program. My daughter Queen is not 100% tolerant by any means but it is a lot better than my current stock and any drop in varoa numbers as a bonus. Varroa treatments are both a boon and a curse, if there had never been any effective varroa treatments I'm sure we would have overcome the problem by now.

I am convinced the destruction of feral hives by varoa has markedly increased the availability of nectar full stop.

It may be that economically we are better off with varoa .???

 

I was told that Hawaii is being used even by the Europeans trying to concentrate the speed of developing promising looking strains of VSH queens as they have a natural year round nectar flow. The development by natural selection is a matter of time since varroa first arrived, so there are areas of Europe and USA with a naturally higher level of VSH and untreated hives. 

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9 hours ago, Josh said:

 

So that means USA will be treatment free by when?

 

9 hours ago, David Yanke said:

What a stupid statement.  Again great attitude 

 

What? You state a “fact”... Successful varroa tolerant bee genetics introduced to USA 1997. That means the clock is ticking to success right?

 

Thousands (likely millions) of years has produced a parasitic relationship (as opposed to a tolerant or symbiotic relationship ) and you think humans can reverse that?

 

We couldn’t even keep varroa out of New Zealand. 

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2 hours ago, Josh said:

 

 

What? You state a “fact”... Successful varroa tolerant bee genetics introduced to USA 1997. That means the clock is ticking to success right?

 

Thousands (likely millions) of years has produced a parasitic relationship (as opposed to a tolerant or symbiotic relationship ) and you think humans can reverse that?

 

We couldn’t even keep varroa out of New Zealand. 

Why would the importation of a small number of Varroa Tolerant European  Honey Bees into a research Centre in Louisiana necessarily mean the clock is ticking towards totally tolerant bees stocks across America?

 

For not millions, but more likely many 10's of thousands of years Varroa jacobsoni parasitised Apis cerana(the Asian Honey Bee).  They evolved together, and Apis cerana were totally tolerant of Varroa j., Varroa j. could not reproduce on Apis mellifera,  but last century(a mere blink-of-an-eye ago in evolutionary timescales) probably in Far East Russia where Apis mellifera was being kept  along side Apis cerana, a mutation occurred, a mite resulted that could reproduce on Apis mellifera, Varroa destructor was born, and it spread around Apis mellifera populations around the world, arriving in NZ in April, 2000. Humans are not trying to reverse anything, but by treating, we are standing in the way of Apis mellifera adapting to this very new pest. 

 

As a beginner beekeeper, you should have an open mind, and a thirst for more knowledge about the bees you keep, and not enter so rabidly into discussions you know little about.

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18 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

Humans are not trying to reverse anything, but by treating, we are standing in the way of Apis mellifera adapting to this very new pest. 

Agreed.  If tasked and given a bundle of money to do so, what would your strategy/long term plan to deal with varroa look like ?

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4 hours ago, kaihoka said:

The russian bees would have a long breed break . Maybe 4 or 5 months .

I wonder how many varroa would be left in the hive and how long they would take to build up .

 In A short intense season with long daylight hours The Honey production maybe great .

But i Agree with @john berry Our conditions are very different and it would not work here .

 

Only using the Primorsky Bees as an example.  I wouldn't want them here either.  From my experience with them, I wasn't impressed with them at all, except for their Varroa tolerance.  They were generally a bit nervous and nasty, but worst of all, they were so swarmy, and not very productive.  Those negative traits are not necessarily linked to their Varroa tolerance, but with those bees they adapted to the environment  they were in. 

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Dont forget that certain people will have other interests than the wide spread of varroa tolerant bees. Selling Varroa treatments has become a big branch of the industry in most regions of the world.

 

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

Why would the importation of a small number of Varroa Tolerant European  Honey Bees into a research Centre in Louisiana necessarily mean the clock is ticking towards totally tolerant bees stocks across America?

 

For not millions, but more likely many 10's of thousands of years Varroa jacobsoni parasitised Apis cerana(the Asian Honey Bee).  They evolved together, and Apis cerana were totally tolerant of Varroa j., Varroa j. could not reproduce on Apis mellifera,  but last century(a mere blink-of-an-eye ago in evolutionary timescales) probably in Far East Russia where Apis mellifera was being kept  along side Apis cerana, a mutation occurred, a mite resulted that could reproduce on Apis mellifera, Varroa destructor was born, and it spread around Apis mellifera populations around the world, arriving in NZ in April, 2000. Humans are not trying to reverse anything, but by treating, we are standing in the way of Apis mellifera adapting to this very new pest. 

 

As a beginner beekeeper, you should have an open mind, and a thirst for more knowledge about the bees you keep, and not enter so rabidly into discussions you know little about.

 

Not quite David. Varroa destructor is not a mutation from V. jabobsoni . . . . it is a separate species that has always existed but until relatively recently, wasn't distinguished from V. jacobsoni (a bit like Nosema apis and ceranae) [JM]

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23 minutes ago, Christi An said:

Dont forget that certain people will have other interests than the wide spread of varroa tolerant bees. Selling Varroa treatments has become a big branch of the industry in most regions of the world.

 

Your comments are probably pointed at me and Ill respond by saying,

Bring on the resistant Bees, Ill give you covering fire while you take ground.
Not everyone in this so small minded and as to think like your comments might indicate.
Get real man

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I never said I didn't want varoa tolerant bees. I merely said that perhaps we're better off financially with varoa than without.

I agree with David on the varoa destructor. My understanding is that it is a mutation.

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

Your comments are probably pointed at me and Ill respond by saying,

Bring on the resistant Bees, Ill give you covering fire while you take ground.
Not everyone in this so small minded and as to think like your comments might indicate.
Get real man

 

theres a saying: dogs which have been hit bark the loudest.

 

Varroa tolerance is a very complex topic and you do not have the necessary knowledge to even understand part of it. nor are you open enough to even want to understand it.

 

continue advertising your socks...

Edited by Christi An
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1 hour ago, john berry said:

I agree with David on the varoa destructor. My understanding is that it is a mutation.

 

Quite a different species John. . .but most of the parasitism caused by varroa pre-2000 was ascribed to V. jacobsoni - rather than the actual culprit V. destructor: the varroa that we all know and lov . .hate.

Ironically the work to sort out the naming confusion was done by Dennis Anderson in Australia.

 

As noted by another member of the science group, there are also reports now of V. jacobsoni jumping on A. mellifera (just to add to the story) [JM]

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22 minutes ago, Christi An said:

 

theres a saying: dogs which have been hit bark the loudest.

 

Varroa tolerance is a very complex topic and you do not have the necessary knowledge to even understand part of it. nor are you open enough to even want to understand it.

 

continue advertising your socks...

 

Where has the popcorn eating icon gone ? ?

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2 hours ago, Christi An said:

Dont forget that certain people will have other interests than the wide spread of varroa tolerant bees. Selling Varroa treatments has become a big branch of the industry in most regions of the world.

 

Not the case at all.  In terms of pesticides, Varroa control in honeybees is such a tiny tiny market compared basically any other pesticide market, that I am surprised we have any varroa controls at all.  

 

Incidentally this is is why we’re largely still using ancient synthetic chemistry like amitraz and flumethin, and why we need innovators working organic acids.

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14 minutes ago, ApiNZ Science & Research said:

 

Quite a different species John. . .but most of the parasitism caused by varroa pre-2000 was ascribed to V. jacobsoni - rather than the actual culprit V. destructor: the varroa that we all know and lov . .hate.

Ironically the work to sort out the naming confusion was done by Dennis Anderson in Australia.

 

As noted by another member of the science group, there are also reports now of V. jacobsoni jumping on A. mellifera (just to add to the story) [JM]

Yes, Varroa destructor is a distinct species, but it originated as a mutant of Varroa jacobsoni less than 60 years ago.  And yes, it was Dennis who finally solved the puzzle, and differentiated between the 2 species- we can almost claim him as an honorary Kiwi because he spent a lot of time working for DSIR at Mt. Albert during the 80's, and a bit into the 90's, and a lot of beekeepers came to know him well, and enjoy his company.

 

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4 hours ago, David Yanke said:

Why would the importation of a small number of Varroa Tolerant European  Honey Bees into a research Centre in Louisiana necessarily mean the clock is ticking towards totally tolerant bees stocks across America?

 

For not millions, but more likely many 10's of thousands of years Varroa jacobsoni parasitised Apis cerana(the Asian Honey Bee).  They evolved together, and Apis cerana were totally tolerant of Varroa j., Varroa j. could not reproduce on Apis mellifera,  but last century(a mere blink-of-an-eye ago in evolutionary timescales) probably in Far East Russia where Apis mellifera was being kept  along side Apis cerana, a mutation occurred, a mite resulted that could reproduce on Apis mellifera, Varroa destructor was born, and it spread around Apis mellifera populations around the world, arriving in NZ in April, 2000. Humans are not trying to reverse anything, but by treating, we are standing in the way of Apis mellifera adapting to this very new pest. 

 

As a beginner beekeeper, you should have an open mind, and a thirst for more knowledge about the bees you keep, and not enter so rabidly into discussions you know little about.

 

https://beekeep.info/a-treatise-on-modern-honey-bee-management/managing-diseases-and-pests/varroa-short-history/

 

good quick update for us “simple beginners”. thanks for the “prompt”. Really interesting. I’d not noticed the species distinction the first time I read about this. 

 

Looks like they’re still learning with 5 species and counting due to the application of genetic testing.

 

Watch this space I guess. 

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