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Question Combining nuc with queenless hive without losing nuc bees

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I want to unite a 6 frame 3/4 depth nuc that has a queen with a large hive which is queenless. I am planning to transfer the nuc into a box then immediately put it on top of the large hive using the newspaper method. The nuc is currently about 10m away from the large hive. My question is how do I move the nuc without the foraging bees from the nuc getting lost or staying at the original location? 

I wondered about moving the nuc into the box and putting it on the large hive in the late afternoon, and then putting the empty nuc box back in the original location and hope that any bees that return there will go in, and later on I could take the nuc box and shake the bees into the new box at the new location. I guess that the time taken for them to break through the newspaper will be enough for them to get reoriented to the new location.

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Use an excluder as well as paper! I didn’t and ended up with 4 boxes of frames that were mostly honey with a bit of brood.

 

In this weather it might be a good idea to put a small slash or 2 in the paper and prop the hive mat on a match at each corner too.

 

In terms of bees going back to the original spot, in my (very limited) experience it wasn’t a problem but leaving an empty nuc at the spot isn’t going to cause you too much grief if you have a spare.

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If you are not sure whether the queenless hive is so, you could steal a frame of brood from the queenright one and then chck for queencells a few days later. In the mean time, or if you can spare a few days, you can move the hives towards each other a metre each per day to allow the flyers to reorientate. (Or two hops per day if the weather is good). Then when you do combine, your bees will find their home OK as they will be a metre or so apart.

The newspaper method is very reliable however if forage/weather is poor, feeders on for a day or two does seem to help reduce failure. I guess it keeps the bees busy and allows trophelaxis to occur - bees feeding bees - so they unite without fighting.

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Just a reminder that a Q&A thread allows the answers to be rated up or down, thereby changing the order of the posts. This means conversation or discussion doesnt work in these topics, so please just keep your reposnse to answering the question.

 

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On 31/08/2019 at 8:00 AM, Wildflower said:

How did this all go? I have decided to start studying up,so am reading forums and came across yours. Why in this case, could you not just wait until dark and all bees are home and close the nuc ( that has been transfered to 3/4 box) then next day move it to new location on top of queenless hive on newspaper with a Q excluder with small split in paper? Like you I would have imagined that once the nuc bees get through to the bottom box they would just reorientate? Wouldn't they? Didn't understand the 10m walk stuff and why?

Starting page 120 in Practical Beekeeping in NZ by Andrew Matheson and Murray Reid  cover the whole topic of moving hives very well, and there are other references through the book. When you have a problem, that is the first reference to use, alongside the yellow AFB book and the green varroa book. If you use online information (other than on this forum), you will continue to have problems, as anyone can post anything they wish, and much is guided by what they are trying to sell you.

Edited by Sailabee
spelling.

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good plan.

 

i would rather remove everything at the nucs position including the pallet (and do the combining in the evening)

 

any stray foragers coming back there will start looking around and enter any hive in the vicinity 10 m is not too far. theyll find it eventually (or any other hive)

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They will probably be thru the paper in a couple of days, so expect a few locked onto the old site.  They will cluster for a bit but eventually relocate themselves. I left an egg carton and would empty it by a hive in the evening. (I'm sure the only benefit was making me feel better)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/01/2019 at 12:27 PM, KatK said:

I want to unite a 6 frame 3/4 depth nuc that has a queen with a large hive which is queenless. I am planning to transfer the nuc into a box then immediately put it on top of the large hive using the newspaper method. The nuc is currently about 10m away from the large hive. My question is how do I move the nuc without the foraging bees from the nuc getting lost or staying at the original location? 

I wondered about moving the nuc into the box and putting it on the large hive in the late afternoon, and then putting the empty nuc box back in the original location and hope that any bees that return there will go in, and later on I could take the nuc box and shake the bees into the new box at the new location. I guess that the time taken for them to break through the newspaper will be enough for them to get reoriented to the new location.

 

I recently did a 10m hive walk, it was a pain. I moved it about 50cm-100cm per day, rainy days included. If the weather is poor and you move them it causes issues as they may not have left during the bad weather.

 

I don’t think they’ll reorientate when they can’t get out, though I have never tried it. Can you move both hives towards each other to speed it up?

 

Personally I’d just merge with newspaper and let them sort it out.

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1 hour ago, cBank said:

 

I recently did a 10m hive walk, it was a pain. I moved it about 50cm-100cm per day, rainy days included. If the weather is poor and you move them it causes issues as they may not have left during the bad weather.

 

I don’t think they’ll reorientate when they can’t get out, though I have never tried it. Can you move both hives towards each other to speed it up?

 

Personally I’d just merge with newspaper and let them sort it out.

I am moving my hive back from the hakea tonight.

I am thinking very carefull exactly where it will go .

I have done the 10 mtr walk before .

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an easier 10m walk might probably be to just move the hive 3+kms to another site (maybe even your backyard) and after 4+ weeks move it where you originally wanted to move

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13 hours ago, Wildflower said:

How did this all go? I have decided to start studying up,so am reading forums and came across yours. Why in this case, could you not just wait until dark and all bees are home and close the nuc ( that has been transfered to 3/4 box) then next day move it to new location on top of queenless hive on newspaper with a Q excluder with small split in paper?Like you I would have imagined that once the nuc bees get through to the bottom box they would just reorientate? Wouldn't they? Didn't understand the 10m walk stuff and why?

Once a foraging bee orients itself to the hive and landmarks they can get pretty set about going back to the location of the  home they are used to .

I moved a hive 10 klms away for 4 weeks cause I wanted to move it 10 mtrs.

When I brought it back to the new spot a cluster of bees circled round the old spot for a few days .

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On 31/08/2019 at 9:37 PM, kaihoka said:

Once a foraging bee orients itself to the hive and landmarks they can get pretty set about going back to the location of the  home they are used to .

I moved a hive 10 klms away for 4 weeks cause I wanted to move it 10 mtrs.

When I brought it back to the new spot a cluster of bees circled round the old spot for a few days .

yes, I've had the same issue too. My rule of thumb now is to wait until all the bees are dead and there is a new generation of bees in the hive that never knew about that site. Moving the hive over winter they'll all still be alive and will remember. The rule about 3 feet, 3 days and 3 miles implies you can move them one foot per day or 3 feet every three days. Depending on terrain I prefer to go with that for 10m or less or unless I can get somebody else to do it for me :) 

However, I see facebook is full of people who can do anything just leaving a stick by the entrance, I've not had 100% success re-orienting them that way as a proportion of my bees seem to go to the old place regardless of brush and branches.

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15 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

However, I see facebook is full of people who can do anything just leaving a stick by the entrance, I've not had 100% success re-orienting them that way as a proportion of my bees seem to go to the old place regardless of brush and branches.

Then obviously you are wrong or not doing it correctly.  All the experts on Facebook are the international experts and everyone else is a dummy (regardless of experience of the poster)  

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The only bees that "reorientate" properly  are swarming bees. Their GPS has been re-set. 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/01/2019 at 12:27 PM, KatK said:

I want to unite a 6 frame 3/4 depth nuc that has a queen with a large hive which is queenless. I am planning to transfer the nuc into a box then immediately put it on top of the large hive using the newspaper method. The nuc is currently about 10m away from the large hive. My question is how do I move the nuc without the foraging bees from the nuc getting lost or staying at the original location? 

I wondered about moving the nuc into the box and putting it on the large hive in the late afternoon, and then putting the empty nuc box back in the original location and hope that any bees that return there will go in, and later on I could take the nuc box and shake the bees into the new box at the new location. I guess that the time taken for them to break through the newspaper will be enough for them to get reoriented to the new location.

How did this all go? I have decided to start studying up,so am reading forums and came across yours. Why in this case, could you not just wait until dark and all bees are home and close the nuc ( that has been transfered to 3/4 box) then next day move it to new location on top of queenless hive on newspaper with a Q excluder with small split in paper?Like you I would have imagined that once the nuc bees get through to the bottom box they would just reorientate? Wouldn't they? Didn't understand the 10m walk stuff and why?

Edited by Wildflower
Want to add. Is it because the bees keep going back to original home?
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On 3/09/2019 at 9:57 AM, Sailabee said:

Starting page 120 in Practical Beekeeping in NZ by Andrew Matheson and Murray Reid  cover the whole topic of moving hives very well, and there are other references through the book. When you have a problem, that is the first reference to use, alongside the yellow AFB book and the green varroa book. If you use online information (other than on this forum), you will continue to have problems, as anyone can post anything they wish, and much is guided by what they are trying to sell you.

My Practical bee keeping is back on my bedside table😁

Edited by Wildflower
Practical beekeeping BOOK!
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