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cBank

DocumentOA/GL Forum Summary 1/12/18

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Thank you. 

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Much appreciated?

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Well  done @cBank thank you for your work compiling this summary. I can throw away the scraps of paper I had recorded important points on now it’s all in one place. ?

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Thanks @cBank

RE: "When you heat glycerine (or glycerol, essentially the same thing) with oxalic acid, a number of chemical compounds are formed, certainly depending on temperature, probably also depending on time of heating, impurities in either compound, and heating vessel."

Would be worth adding that one of those products is formic acid.

"When glycerol is heated with oxalic acid at 100–110°C temperature formic acid is produced"

https://www.quora.com/What-are-products-obtained-when-glycerol-is-heated-with-oxalic-acid

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These are very positive comments, thank you all. Don’t be thinking it was my work alone though, there are other less attention seeking forum members! A non-forum helper described the summary as more boring than reading school reports, and she has just done 150. ?

 

Thanks @Borage. I don’t think the OA/GL should be heated that high, is formic acid formed at lower temps? Or is the point that you shouldn’t go too hot so as to avoid formic? 

I’ll upload a new version after allowing a bit for time for anything else to be mentioned.

Edited by cBank

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@cBank what a fantastic summary . Are you doing your thesis on the topic because your reporting and presentation skills are very good .

One correction please . As much as I’d like to claim credit , it was @Philbee who suggested to me not to reuse staples because of the change in moisture composition . I just confirmed what he had suggested was happening , after I asked .

Thanks 

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Thanks @M4tt, that’s very flattering. No more study for me in the near term!

 

I’ll make that change, gather a few more and put up a new version.

 

I’m interested to know who’s going to do the summary of the summary?

Edited by cBank
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@cBank thank you so much for your summary . 

I have read all posts from the beginning but I began to loose the plot at about pg 60 .

I was really hoping that someone kind would write a synopsis like you have done . :14_relaxed:

 

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59 minutes ago, M4tt said:

@cBank what a fantastic summary . Are you doing your thesis on the topic because your reporting and presentation skills are very good .

One correction please . As much as I’d like to claim credit , it was @Philbee who suggested to me not to reuse staples because of the change in moisture composition . I just confirmed what he had suggested was happening , after I asked .

Thanks 

I agree Matt, he his a very good writer. 

Im not worried about a bit of shared or misquoted credit, you played an important part in getting the staples out there yourself and are entitled to some credit.


 

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10 hours ago, cBank said:

Thanks @Borage. I don’t think the OA/GL should be heated that high, is formic acid formed at lower temps? Or is the point that you shouldn’t go too hot so as to avoid formic?  

A safety warning is what I was thinking of; a good reason to consider using a thermometer, not to let the mixture overheat, and don't leave the heating pot unattended.

Perhaps a summary and reference to the formic acid safety here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid

"Formic acid is readily metabolized and eliminated by the body. Nonetheless, it has specific toxic effects; the formic acid and formaldehyde produced as metabolites of methanol are responsible for the optic nerve damage, causing blindness seen in methanol poisoning"

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2 hours ago, Borage said:

A safety warning is what I was thinking of; a good reason to consider using a thermometer, not to let the mixture overheat, and don't leave the heating pot unattended.

Perhaps a summary and reference to the formic acid safety here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid

"Formic acid is readily metabolized and eliminated by the body. Nonetheless, it has specific toxic effects; the formic acid and formaldehyde produced as metabolites of methanol are responsible for the optic nerve damage, causing blindness seen in methanol poisoning"

Are you aware that formic acid is an alternative treatment against Varroa Mite.

Its well known as a hazardous substance to handle in the preparation and or application of  it's various treatment methods.

The instructions clearly state a much lower heating level than the Formic Acid forming threshold.

Whats more, I have heated solution to 120 deg C and there is no dangerous cloud that suddenly billows from the heating vessel.
What exactly is your agenda @Borage

 

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Hi @Philbee

Better for beeks to know about the potential presence of a different acid in the solution if it overheats, even though the risk of its presence is low and easily mitigated: use of a personal safety gear, double boiler, electric timer on heat source, ventilation, thermometer, work area clear of children and pets, a clear pre-determined path to shower or suitable eye wash area. A lot of people are likely to be using home kitchens.

I'm allergic to some chemicals and have had dermititis and pterygium (growth on the cornea of the eye) in the past. So unapologetically I take a very close look at ingredients and instructions.

I used to work with large 50V batteries where the protocol around acid handling was always safety glasses, aprons and rubber gloves and gumboots. I have been using MAQS since early 2016 and when handling the product use a mask, gloves and goggles, work upwind of the product where possible, as NOD recommend. I am very interested in OA-G staples because it would allow me to avoid the vapour associated with formic, and the impact on the hive.

"The instructions clearly state a much lower heating level than the Formic Acid forming threshold." Great, but distractions and accidents happen.

"I have heated solution to 120 deg C and there is no dangerous cloud that suddenly billows from the heating vessel." Good to know! I never used the word explosion.

Beyond that I am just trying to learn more and to help with a really good resource for beeks. I have no intention of stealing anyones ideas and I hope my questions or suggestions were not construed as criticisms as they were certainly not intended to be.

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I think the point about monitoring the temperature and not leaving it on the heat is worth adding. The safety section was really lacking initially and I added to it and made it a lot better.

The more people that use the system, the more likely it is that someone inexperienced with chemicals will try to do it and things that are obvious to some might not be to others.

The suggestion that you have fresh water handy in a container and a hose close by was was a late addition. That’s such an obvious thing, yet I didn’t do it when making up batches.

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2 hours ago, Borage said:

Hi @Philbee

Better for beeks to know about the potential presence of a different acid in the solution if it overheats, even though the risk of its presence is low and easily mitigated: use of a personal safety gear, double boiler, electric timer on heat source, ventilation, thermometer, work area clear of children and pets, a clear pre-determined path to shower or suitable eye wash area. A lot of people are likely to be using home kitchens.

I'm allergic to some chemicals and have had dermititis and pterygium (growth on the cornea of the eye) in the past. So unapologetically I take a very close look at ingredients and instructions.

I used to work with large 50V batteries where the protocol around acid handling was always safety glasses, aprons and rubber gloves and gumboots. I have been using MAQS since early 2016 and when handling the product use a mask, gloves and goggles, work upwind of the product where possible, as NOD recommend. I am very interested in OA-G staples because it would allow me to avoid the vapour associated with formic, and the impact on the hive.

"The instructions clearly state a much lower heating level than the Formic Acid forming threshold." Great, but distractions and accidents happen.

"I have heated solution to 120 deg C and there is no dangerous cloud that suddenly billows from the heating vessel." Good to know! I never used the word explosion.

Beyond that I am just trying to learn more and to help with a really good resource for beeks. I have no intention of stealing anyones ideas and I hope my questions or suggestions were not construed as criticisms as they were certainly not intended to be.

My sincere recommendation for you  Borrage  is to run a mile from this system
stick with MAQS 
The risks are just too high

Be sure to keep left this Xmas also

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I will continue  to buy the staples presoaked I couldn’t be bothered going to the trouble of making our own mixture.

The lids on those buckets are blimmen hard to get off though!!

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9 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I will continue  to buy the staples presoaked I couldn’t be bothered going to the trouble of making our own mixture.

The lids on those buckets are blimmen hard to get off though!!

Hey @Philbee how do we buy the pre-soaked version @frazzledfozzle Refers to? I can’t find them listed in marketplace

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1 hour ago, Pinnacle said:

Hey @Philbee how do we buy the pre-soaked version @frazzledfozzle Refers to? I can’t find them listed in marketplace

Short answer is you cannot simply rock up and purchase pre soaked Staples.
If you want Staples to be soaked  then you need to arrange for a contractor to do that for you at your request and specification.
I can point you to a contractor.

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12 hours ago, Philbee said:

My sincere recommendation for you  Borrage  is to run a mile from this system
stick with MAQS 
The risks are just too high

Be sure to keep left this Xmas also

it probably would be best never to consider exporting to the USA.

all the best '" Darwin award" contenders come from there.

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

Short answer is you cannot simply rock up and purchase pre soaked Staples.
If you want Staples to be soaked  then you need to arrange for a contractor to do that for you at your request and specification.
I can point you to a contractor.

To date the contractors charge around 15 -20 cents per staple to supply Chems and soak

Edited by Philbee
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13 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I will continue  to buy the staples presoaked I couldn’t be bothered going to the trouble of making our own mixture.

The lids on those buckets are blimmen hard to get off though!!

You need a paint pail opener 

Edited by M4tt
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2 minutes ago, M4tt said:

You need a paint pail opener 

Yes , I did a couple of bulk purchases and got a good price so everyone now gets a Pail opener or 4 depending on how many beeks in the crew

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46 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Yes , I did a couple of bulk purchases and got a good price so everyone now gets a Pail opener or 4 depending on how many beeks in the crew

 

Does anyone know of anything that @Philbee hasn’t thought of?

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33 minutes ago, cBank said:

 

Does anyone know of anything that @Philbee hasn’t thought of?

This will be interesting

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