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Does anyone know the likely outcome of uniting a laying worker hive with a queen right hive ?

Cheers

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What you can do is shake all the bees from the queenless hive about 2 m in front of the queen right.  All but the but the laying workers will be allowed in.

 

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16 minutes ago, Trevor Gillbanks said:

Yep.  Pretty simple really.  Dead queen

Ahh, so whats going on there, are the laying workers aggresive towards the queen or do the real workers reject the queen from the hive,

or is just one of those mysteries best avoided. cheers

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There is one other solution - hobby beek solution which I tried. If laying worker colony is still enough strong I add one frame with of open brood from other colony and after 7 days another. If not on the first with the second frame they start to make emergency qcells which I wait to be sealed and destroy them and place a qcell which I have reared in proper way from other colony. It is more time consuming and taking resources from other hives but works.

When asking about laying worker vs queen fight. I learned they get in direct confrontation ( also couple beeks who place queen in such colony claimed to see queen fight with individual bee - laying worker, but eventually lose the fight). There can be several hundred laying workers within one such colony as we learned in school, so it is long line of adversaries..

Edited by Goran
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5 minutes ago, Goran said:

There is one other solution - hobby beek solution which I tried. If laying worker colony is still enough strong I add one frame with of open brood from other colony and after 7 days another. If not on the first with the second frame they start to make emergency qcells which I wait to be sealed and destroy them and place a qcell which I have reared in proper way from other colony. It is more time consuming and taking resources from other hives but works.

When asking about laying worker vs queen fight. I learned they get in direct confrontation ( also couple beeks who place queen in such colony claimed to see queen fight with individual bee - laying worker, but eventually lose the fight). There can be several hundred laying workers within one such colony as we learned in school, so it is long line of adversaries..

Yes., that works, I have also done that system.

 

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12 minutes ago, Goran said:

I learned they get in direct confrontation ( also couple beeks who place queen in such colony claimed to see queen fight with individual bee - laying worker,

Thanks, thats a great insight into understanding the complexities of the hive. 

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18 minutes ago, Bee Good said:

Thanks, thats a great insight into understanding the complexities of the hive. 

A couple of days ago I took a virgin on a frame of bees out of a hive and put her in a nuc of laying workers .

After I had tipped  all  the bees out in front of the nuc.

I did not want the virgin and instead of killing her thought I would see if this worked .

I will let you know .

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9 hours ago, kaihoka said:

A couple of days ago I took a virgin on a frame of bees out of a hive and put her in a nuc of laying workers .

After I had tipped  all  the bees out in front of the nuc.

I did not want the virgin and instead of killing her thought I would see if this worked .

I will let you know .

To clarify @kaihoka the bees you tipped out, were all from the  Nuc (5 frames)?

Did you place the frame, with the virgin in the centre position? 

And then removed one of the original frames? 

 

It it will be interesting to hear the update

Thanks 

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1 hour ago, Beefriendly said:

To clarify @kaihoka the bees you tipped out, were all from the  Nuc (5 frames)?

Did you place the frame, with the virgin in the centre position? 

And then removed one of the original frames? 

 

It it will be interesting to hear the update

Thanks 

Yes all the bees were from the laying worker five frame nuc I had made to take somewhere to mate 

The virgin in there had gone and someone had started laying drones.

I stuck the nuc under my avocado tree thinking to make use of it.

Then when I ended up with an unwanted virgin I thought it would use her.

All the bees in laying worker box were dumped on ground and frames brushed clean of bees .

I put the virgin frame in the middle with her bees , sprayed air freshner around .

The other bees walked back into nuc .

 

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I have tried the technique Goran suggested of adding brood until the colony decides to rear a queencell. For me it took 3 weeks and 3 frames of brood. I then introduced a queen which was killed. The second queen wasn't.  A lot of effort - I could have made a nuc up with 3 frames of brood and a young queen much more easily!

 

What works if you want to use the bees from a LW hive is to move it next to a large colony so,firstly the flyers return to the hive closest to where the LW used to be. This automatically reduces the strength of the LW hive and the flyers are accepted and put to productive use quickly. For the remains of the LW colony, the second part of the process is that it can be united with newspaper onto the strong hive you placed it next to, after a few days - say on top of the supers with a queen excluder between. This should kill the urge for the workers to lay eggs and they won't fight or cause problems with the recipient colony as it's big and strong and by the time the bees work their way down towards the brood-nest, they will have gotten accustomed to the hive smell and be peaceful (That's my experience anyway). However don't forget that drone cells are a good breeding ground for varroa so you may want to remove the frames of drone brood before they emerge. After a week or so of the brood box being on the top of the colony, the box that used to house the laying workers can be removed and the bees shaken out. If the LW colony already has supers on it, these can be placed on top of another colony first (use newspaper as a precaution), the bees in the super are not usually the flyers and will stay put.

 

The above is always on the proviso that moving bees and brood from one colony to another can spread disease in addition to spreading varroa. So it must always be done understanding the risks.

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@AdamD LW = low weight ? or more correctly laying worker?

 

oops I’ve crossed threads in my thinking as there is reference to merging hives on the Nov diary 

Edited by Beefriendly

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I often end up with drone layers and laying workers in spring because of difficult mating enviroment.

I have never had any problems with dumping them out , generally on a tarp, about 10 metres away .

I put a queen right hive of relatively similar strength in the hives spot .

I think if you do it in the middle of a hot day in a good flow the bees are full of honey and are let in.

I probably would not try in in lean times .

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As we have discussed before, requeening laying worker colonies with  protected cells is the most succesful. Sucess rate 60-70%.

Search the Forum.

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10 hours ago, AdamD said:

I have tried the technique Goran suggested of adding brood until the colony decides to rear a queencell. For me it took 3 weeks and 3 frames of brood. I then introduced a queen which was killed. The second queen wasn't.  A lot of effort - I could have made a nuc up with 3 frames of brood and a young queen much more easily!

 

What works if you want to use the bees from a LW hive is to move it next to a large colony so,firstly the flyers return to the hive closest to where the LW used to be. This automatically reduces the strength of the LW hive and the flyers are accepted and put to productive use quickly. For the remains of the LW colony, the second part of the process is that it can be united with newspaper onto the strong hive you placed it next to, after a few days - say on top of the supers with a queen excluder between. This should kill the urge for the workers to lay eggs and they won't fight or cause problems with the recipient colony as it's big and strong and by the time the bees work their way down towards the brood-nest, they will have gotten accustomed to the hive smell and be peaceful (That's my experience anyway). However don't forget that drone cells are a good breeding ground for varroa so you may want to remove the frames of drone brood before they emerge. After a week or so of the brood box being on the top of the colony, the box that used to house the laying workers can be removed and the bees shaken out. If the LW colony already has supers on it, these can be placed on top of another colony first (use newspaper as a precaution), the bees in the super are not usually the flyers and will stay put.

 

The above is always on the proviso that moving bees and brood from one colony to another can spread disease in addition to spreading varroa. So it must always be done understanding the risks.

 

Sorry didn't answer earlier, older bees are gonna hardly accept new queen ( even if not laying worker colony) so that is why I place a qcell which they consider as their own ( I give 12-14 days old qcell), sides of a qcell I brush with honey from their hive. Requeening is then better when is later in queenright state. 

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7 hours ago, Dave Black said:

As we have discussed before, requeening laying worker colonies with  protected cells is the most succesful. Sucess rate 60-70%.

Search the Forum.

That may be true but it has worked for me other ways too.

 

Edited by kaihoka
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Great information coming out of the Northern Hemisphere.

Edited by Bee Good
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I was requeening 4 weeks ago, and had a laying worker hive.

I did the dump (6m away) method,

at the same time i united a queen right hive to this LW hive.

 

excepted with no trouble, i hadnt done it before so it was nice to see it work.

good info above team

 

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57 minutes ago, Mitch said:

I was requeening 4 weeks ago, and had a laying worker hive.

I did the dump (6m away) method,

at the same time i united a queen right hive to this LW hive.

 

excepted with no trouble, i hadnt done it before so it was nice to see it work.

good info above team

 

i have had that same scenario  work fine for me twice.

dumping a virgin in didn't work.

also i did not dump the bees far enough away then.

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1 hour ago, kaihoka said:

also i did not dump the bees far enough away then.

Just curious, how far away were you when you shook off.

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1 hour ago, Bee Good said:

Just curious, how far away were you when you shook off.

About a foot :6_smile:

Far too close , the nuc was on the edge of a bank next to an avocado tree that was below it 

It was not a serious attempt to sort the problem .

I am going to put a protected cell on a frame of open brood in next.

A more serious attempt.

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On 12/11/2018 at 8:52 AM, kaihoka said:

Yes all the bees were from the laying worker five frame nuc I had made to take somewhere to mate 

The virgin in there had gone and someone had started laying drones.

I stuck the nuc under my avocado tree thinking to make use of it.

Then when I ended up with an unwanted virgin I thought it would use her.

All the bees in laying worker box were dumped on ground and frames brushed clean of bees .

I put the virgin frame in the middle with her bees , sprayed air freshner around .

The other bees walked back into nuc .

 

 

You put the nuc back to the same place where it was. In my book this is a mistake. There was a freeway for all the bees including the LW ones to march back into the box and most likely they will kill the virgin. The key is to separate the LW from the non LW therefore you dump the bees on the ground several meters away fdrom the original place of the hive/nuc.

 

My method is quite the same however it has a small twist.

 

The best thing is to dump the bees 20+ m away or even more.

First.

I give a big smoke to the hive to make sure the bees go by their instinct and fill up their mouth with honey/food. Then I close the hive and move it as far as I can 20-50m and dump the bees on the ground.

I make sure nothing goes on the spot where the LW colony was because all the bees including the LW will try to return to their original spot.

This way the bees will have to beg for a shelter into other hives and those with food in their mouth will be welcomed by the other hives in the apiary while the LW will be rejected by the guard bees. This way I SEPARATE the LW from the non LW. Few days later I can put a new colony where the LW hive was originally.

If a hive gets over boosted by the non LW, even next day I can split it(walk away split or use a QC or a mated queen in a cage).

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Sometimes shaking them out is the easiest way to deal with a LW colony, but it is not failsafe, if they show up in overwhelming numbers at the QR colony, they can on occasion kill the queen. You won't read that in the books, but i have been there and done that several times.

 

Uniting is the other way, and this method I use has been virtually failsafe over the years. Choose a QR colony of at least equal strength to the LW colony and remove supers down to the queen excluder. Put 3 sheets of newspaper under the queen excluder and punch a finger sized hole in the middle. If there is no queen excluder, get one and put on top of the paper. Put the LW colony on top, and the other supers if there are any on top of that. Leave undisturbed 3 weeks then re arrange the colony to how you want it. 

 

A queen excluder must be used. Because otherwise the queen, once the paper has been chewed, can wander up into LW bees before they are ready to accept her and she will be killed. A QE prevents this. If no excluder is used, the combine will be successful sometimes, and not other times, depending on luck. The finger hole in the paper is to prevent the colony above the excluder from suffocating before any paper has been chewed. Some LW bees may wander down into the section with the queen, but there will be enough of her own bees there to protect her.

 

Re putting a virgin into a LW colony. My own experience is the majority of the time she will be killed in the first few minutes if it is a strong colony. Results might be better if she is introduced via a cage with candy, although I have never tried this so don't know. A queen cell can be used with good success in weak queen mating nucs, but in stronger LW colonies must have a cell protector. Once the virgin has hatched and been accepted, LW's will coninue laying, and even after the queen has mated and started laying the LW's will keep laying for a time, you can see this looking at the resultant brood. But once raising of normal brood has started, LW activity will wind down and stop.

 

Mated queen into LW colony? Virtually garuanteed to fail, a waste of a queen.

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I knew it was a mistake .

But I did not really care too much about the outcome .

This LW nuc is simply a group of bees to pollinate the avocado tree.

But I am keen to give a protected cell a go .

I thought I will  stick the cell  on a frame of open brood ,  and put it in a nuc with some bees.

Then put that nuc where the LW nuc is and take the LW  nuc about 50 mtrs away and dump the bees out.

 

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Sounds like a plan. Could improve chances of success further by not shaking any bees out the first day, then a few out each day for a few days till the job is done.

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