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Alastair

Ignorant People selling Garbage Bees

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So my strategy is;

 

I have search running on TradeMe for my rego number (I don't want identity fraud to get me)

I search the beekeeping listings for adds with no registration number, and I report it. This is often not successful. But if they are a shifty add trying to list as a single, but sell multiples you can report them for trying avoid fees... that certainly gets noticed.

 

Its a little thing, but makes it harder for them.

 

I do think that we are soft on AFB. When you think of other of life's big issues...

  1. Selling a few illegally caught fish, up to $250000 + up to 5years  https://www.govt.nz/browse/recreation-and-the-environment/hunting-and-fishing/fishing/

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What about this solution? I'm sure someone must have thought of this earlier.

 

While looking through MPI's website for sassy quotes above, I stumbled into this with respect to didimo. Surely this applies to AFB too.

 

"Biosecurity Act 1993. It is an offence under this Act to spread an unwanted organism, with penalties of up to 5 years imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $100,000"

 

Can this not be applied to AFB?

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47 minutes ago, Josh said:

What about this solution? I'm sure someone must have thought of this earlier.

 

While looking through MPI's website for sassy quotes above, I stumbled into this with respect to didimo. Surely this applies to AFB too.

 

"Biosecurity Act 1993. It is an offence under this Act to spread an unwanted organism, with penalties of up to 5 years imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $100,000"

 

Can this not be applied to AFB?

 

It might just be me who thinks this way, but why aren’t bodies that represent beekeepers talking this way and taking a lead? Yes, it costs money to prosecute, but I’d be happy to contribute, some for the carrot and some for the stick.

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We get to pick up the pieces often from people getting ripped off not just AFB infected nucs but half arsed nucs walk,away nucs hives sold that would not even be classed as a nuc unfortunately the list goes on.

People need to be informed if the seller will not show you through the hive/nuc ECT walk away take someone with you if you are unsure make sure they are registered get there reg number.

One case recently someone on Facebook made some comments looking for a nuc as there hive had died, so I asked if they would mind if I come and had a look first.

When I got there the guy apologies saying that the bees have come back and are busy I opened the hive and it's dripping AFB from the few frames that where tossed in and sold as a two box hive in the process of getting robbed. The guy was told he didn't need to register as he was only a hobby beek. 

Makes my blood boil I hate the fact the dodgy low life's are giving everyone a bad name and are happy to inflict this on new beeks.

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I hope you reported the seller? That DOES need dealing with officially, or your area will never be clear of AFB.

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2 hours ago, Alastair said:

I hope you reported the seller? That DOES need dealing with officially, or your area will never be clear of AFB.

I have a computer full of files I've sent through to assure quality they are very busy down here at the moment. Yes the more you know the more hopeless I feel sometimes. I've got to meet some really good beeks that are doing the same thing helping the guys getting taken for a ride so this is good.

Sometimes it takes a bit off time to reap what you sow ether good or bad.

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On 23/10/2018 at 8:41 PM, Diane said:

The laws around selling hives should some what match the laws around selling honey, way behind in this area, I would pay a Levey to see trade me tidied up, no second hand gear, only sales if you have a reg number and to those with a reg number. Only can sell if seller holds a DECA. There is to much money and peoples lively hoods invested in the industry to have no rules regarding the sale and purchase of hives. It makes me grumpy to see old looking second hand gear on trade me with 20 bids and not one of those bids asking for AFB history

I bought my hive off trademe.

When the seller learnt that I was a never been, he said he would come up from Taupo to install it for me.

I understood from the way he said it that if I was found wanting, I would not get my hive.

 

My smoker was lit and stayed that way for hours afterwards, my NZ Beeks bible was to hand as was the flip chart of pests/diseases that my daughter gave me she attended a open day up in AK.

I did get the third degree and was able to adequately answer all his questions and when his wife asked where I got my information, I could truthfully say that I had been studying up for the last 18 months....and I spotted the Queen before they did as the frames were being installed into my hive.

 

It is not possible for me to do any courses at this time as I work weekends- thats my day job and the courses are only run on the weekends at this time and to be honest, I am not going to miss out on a full weeks wages just for one hive, nor can I afford to do so.

It is registered and I get a qualified person to do the legal check.

 

There are responsible people out there who would miss out on being able to have hives if they Had to have a DECA before they got them, I do agree that sellers need to be discerning as to who they sell colonies to.

 

While there are dodgy people out there, I think it is more a matter of more education, although I agree that there is a need for a law change to deal with those who have a chronic history of AFB and/or are found to be giving or selling infected colonies.

AFB is more a beekeeper disease....just finished watching the Mark Goodwin vids that Kiwimana emailed to me.

My hive has its own hive tool and frame grip. I dont reuse gloves and part of my Integrated Management Strategy is to keep frames of a hive with that hive and not move them about other hives.

It comes down to common sense.

 

 

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2 hours ago, mischief said:

When the seller learnt that I was a never been, he said he would come up from Taupo to install it for me.

I understood from the way he said it that if I was found wanting, I would not get my hive.

and if that were the moral code bee providers followed, some of the problems could be resolved-  There could be resistance initially, but if it became clear that the success of a hive was linked in some way to the seller (ie disease free at sale, adequate bees, after sales support) and the newbee had to jump some hoops and prove their intent, it would increase the standards considerably.

 

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7 hours ago, glynn said:

I have a computer full of files I've sent through to assure quality they are very busy down here at the moment. Yes the more you know the more hopeless I feel sometimes. I've got to meet some really good beeks that are doing the same thing helping the guys getting taken for a ride so this is good.

Sometimes it takes a bit off time to reap what you sow ether good or bad.



As I mentioned elsewhere on this forum, we are very lucky to have beekeepers like Glynn around who do go out of their way and look after the new vulnerable hobbyists. Thank you, Christchurch is a bit cleaner because of your efforts. :)


 

Edited by beefree
spelling and terrible grammar
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On 22/10/2018 at 1:30 AM, Alastair said:

Just had an experience that i think calls for a law change.

 

 

 In regards to AFB, a laboratory results, valid for 30 days, from a sample of few hives in the apiary, does good job.

 

BUT the results can say the hive is healthy and it still may die and be contagious. We simply don't know everything.

 

There is no solution. People are ignorant, oblivious, denial and always looking for the cause(excuse) outside of themselves. "They did not died from a disease. Some of my hives were foraging in pesticide sprayed areas, bringing the poisonous nectar in the hive. They died of pesticide poisoning. I know what a disease is!!!"

 

All business areas with expected high profit margins, attract the greedy part in every human. True, nobody owes you anything. The majority, though, don't realize that by hurting others, they hurt themselves (but who cares as long as still generates profit).

 

I would say - stop thinking how others should behave. Nobody is gonna do it for ya. It is something we have limited control. BUT we have full control over ourselves. There is no short cut. Become better than everybody else. 

Edited by Scutellator
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Can failure to declare AFB infections as required by AFB PMP and not declaring (or under reporting) hives and apiary sites for MAF and AFB PMP Levy purposes be regarded as 'crimes involving deceit'?

 

Crimes Amendment Act 2003  http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2003/0039/latest/DLM200200.html

Crimes involving deceit

240Obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception
  • (1)Every one is guilty of obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception who, by any deception and without claim of right,—

    • (a)obtains ownership or possession of, or control over, any property, or any privilege, service, pecuniary advantage, benefit, or valuable consideration, directly or indirectly; or

    • (b)in incurring any debt or liability, obtains credit; or

    • (c)induces or causes any other person to deliver over, execute, make, accept, endorse, destroy, or alter any document or thing capable of being used to derive a pecuniary advantage; or

    • (d)causes loss to any other person.

    (2)In this section, deception means—

    • (a)a false representation, whether oral, documentary, or by conduct, where the person making the representation intends to deceive any other person and—

      • (i)knows that it is false in a material particular; or

      • (ii)is reckless as to whether it is false in a material particular; or

    • (b)an omission to disclose a material particular, with intent to deceive any person, in circumstances where there is a duty to disclose it; or

    • (c)a fraudulent device, trick, or stratagem used with intent to deceive any person.

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4 minutes ago, Borage said:

Can failure to declare AFB infections as required by AFB PMP and not declaring (or under reporting) hives and apiary sites for MAF and AFB PMP Levy purposes be regarded as 'crimes involving deceit'?

Yes, but the problem would be proving it. Linking the loss directly to the offender. 

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On 30/10/2018 at 6:31 PM, Borage said:

Can failure to declare AFB infections as required by AFB PMP and not declaring (or under reporting) hives and apiary sites for MAF and AFB PMP Levy purposes be regarded as 'crimes involving deceit'?

 

Crimes Amendment Act 2003  http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2003/0039/latest/DLM200200.html

Crimes involving deceit

240Obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception
  • (1)Every one is guilty of obtaining by deception or causing loss by deception who, by any deception and without claim of right,—

    • (a)obtains ownership or possession of, or control over, any property, or any privilege, service, pecuniary advantage, benefit, or valuable consideration, directly or indirectly; or

    • (b)in incurring any debt or liability, obtains credit; or

    • (c)induces or causes any other person to deliver over, execute, make, accept, endorse, destroy, or alter any document or thing capable of being used to derive a pecuniary advantage; or

    • (d)causes loss to any other person.

    (2)In this section, deception means—

    • (a)a false representation, whether oral, documentary, or by conduct, where the person making the representation intends to deceive any other person and—

      • (i)knows that it is false in a material particular; or

      • (ii)is reckless as to whether it is false in a material particular; or

    • (b)an omission to disclose a material particular, with intent to deceive any person, in circumstances where there is a duty to disclose it; or

    • (c)a fraudulent device, trick, or stratagem used with intent to deceive any person.

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    •  

Trouble is....the police dont always see bees as an asset, just a bunch of insects.

And unforutnately, they do not have unlimited resources to investigate dodgy bee sellers, so, we are on our own on this one.

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A couple of weeks on, I hope that the garbage bee seller has been identified. I would be absolutely horrified if someone like that was selling diseased bees in my area; Being hung drawn and quartered is too good for them!

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