Popular Post Dave Black 3,520 Posted October 1, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 1, 2018 7 hours ago, Tom Woods said: My initial question was to try and lead you lot to the truth of the matter of NZ and transgenic bees. Oh please. What patronising claptrap! What makes you think the beekeeping community is so uninformed? There are contributors to this forum that know more about this than you seem to think; Gene Drives were the subject of a presentation at the National Conference two years ago. Just another instant internet 'expert' I suppose. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites
kaihoka 2,975 Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, Alastair said: Hey, if someone could GM me a bee that don't swarm, I'd be in, LOL And could GM varroa repellant bees. One of the issues with GM is that the natural world is such an interconnected system that any modification creates a cascade of unintended consequences. Eventually with AI and super computers boffins may be able to model all possibilities more accurately . 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Josh 395 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, Tom Woods said: Hello, A question I put to you is - In your opinion what affect would the introduction of genetically engineered bees to NZ have on existing commercial honey brands? Thanks for any replies. Maybe a more transparent and upfront declaration, of your intent and status as a beekeeper, could have prevented a synical and dismissive backlash Edited October 2, 2018 by Josh 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Josh 395 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 I want a GM that makes my queen easier to see. Fluorescent pink would be good. Although it could make mating flights more dangerous... 1 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Beefriendly 1,254 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Funny In all this talk, wouldn’t it be easier to replicate honey? 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Woods 1 Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 A satire site? Well, I’ll be so it is! Funny that! Two days or so ago it wasn’t and for well over eight months it’s been a good site with a much larger page full of detail and now POW… a satire site. Interesting too is that searches now only have the Monsanto bee as satire with other pages mainly having the transgenic bee decades away. Real pity I failed to screen-cap or save the entire page. Rookie mistake that! Oh Well. I’m just plain silly and wrong and you’ve all got nothing to worry about. Nothing to see here! It was all just a sad, pathetic joke from a patronising paid shill. Carry on folks. Just ignore the rest like the Gene Drive field tests being conducted here and elsewhere because if one things wrong (satire site) then everything’s wrong isn’t it! Of course they could be doing the other mosquito part of the Gene Drive files.https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/226538-gene-drive-breakthrough-creates-weaponized-mosquito-extinction-strain October 2017 - The bulk of the Gene Drive files were released exposing the US DARPA/Pentagon involvement along with DuPont, Bayer- Monsanto and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. (Good ole Bill-n-Mel with their Monsanto shares and vaccines). + February 2018 - Transgenic bee unveiled by Bayer-Monsanto. FAKE! SATIRE! FAKE! SATIRE! FAKE! SATIRE! FAKE! SATIRE! + April 2018 – New DuPont Pioneer® LumiGEN™ (Pioneer seed with Monsanto Roundup Ready 2 Xtend coating) seed for world wide first sale in NZ. = Field trials? No! NOTHING TO SEE HERE! CARRY ON FOLKS! I never said you were uninformed just not aware of the released Gene Drive files and their contents specifying NZ and Australia (among others) as field test sites. The transgenic bee is much further along than you may think. Don't want to hear it? Fine. Oh, remember folks – October is Red Cross month. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Beefriendly 1,254 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 ?? not that I can see on their web site March in the USA October NZ Breast awareness month Link to post Share on other sites
yesbut 6,230 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Tom Woods said: Don't want to hear it? Fine. Thank you. Now please leave us alone. Link to post Share on other sites
kaihoka 2,975 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Josh said: I want a GM that makes my queen easier to see. Fluorescent pink would be good. Although it could make mating flights more dangerous... Good idea. Then the queens would be safe from my attempts to Mark them . 2 Link to post Share on other sites
kaihoka 2,975 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 I didn't realise it may not be accurate until I saw the breaking news about the dragons causing wild fires in California . It was a pretty cool idea but I thought it was more likely that lightning started the fires. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
M4tt 4,941 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 I’m sorry @Tom Woods, but I really can’t get a grasp on your latest post , after apparently asking a simple question in your opening post , which I thought I understood and gave you my opinion on ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Ali 546 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 15 hours ago, Tom Woods said: Better still scream and shout about it No no no no Tom! Tut tut and all of that. Last poster to use the scream n shout managed to cause reputational damage to a concern that doesn't need more of that. On topic, how trustworthy is your source? Do Monsanto publicly acknowledge what they are reported to be doing with the bees? The trialling in NZ I would love to see confirmation of particularly. All that said, good on you for raising the issue here political or non political it does have to do with bees and their/our well being. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Woods 1 Posted October 2, 2018 Author Share Posted October 2, 2018 Well M4tt, I certainly went about this the wrong way and failed to check that main Monsanto transgenic bee link before posting. It certainly made a fool of me however I have managed to find a couple of remaining links from my source files that still work and refer to Monsanto actively engaging in transgenic bee research. Not nearly the best but all I have left now. 2017https://www.emfacts.com/2017/12/australia-and-new-zealand-to-be-test-sites-for-gm-insect-trials-courtesy-of-darpa-re-posted/ 2015 A sad old link but indicates what they were up to. Misleading title as it's a GE combination of a bees pollinating characteristics with the pesticide immunization properties of ants.https://www.naturalnews.com/050993_flying_ants_genetically_engineered_Monsanto.html Think about the 'coincidences'. October 2017 - The bulk of the Gene Drive files were released exposing the US DARPA/Pentagon involvement along with DuPont, Bayer-Monsanto and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. (DARPA) - US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. Bayer- Monsanto collaborating with the US Pentagon/DARPA Gene Drive and field trials to start in NZ and Australia.http://www.synbiowatch.org/2017/12/the-gene-drive-files/http://www.synbiowatch.org/2016/08/reckless-driving/ Bayer-Monsanto (now seemingly allegedly) developing a Transgenic bee. Remaining links above. In January 2018 - NZ and Australia are two countries that still permit the use of neonicotinoids.https://www.yates.co.nz/brand/confidor ‘Neonicotinoid based products, such as Confidor continue to be approved for use in New Zealand & Australian by the regulators EPA/APVMA/ ACVM who continue to monitor the latest science and have found no data to substantiate the claim that they are harmful to bees when correctly used. In fact, the APVMA have as recently as 12th January 2018 reconfirmed this position. For more information on this, please visit https://apvma.gov.au/node/28786’ There is now a more recent EPA evaluation (from August) in process.https://www.epa.govt.nz/news-and-alerts/latest-news/epa-calls-for-neonicotinoid-information/https://livenews.co.nz/2018/08/14/epa-calls-for-neonicotinoid-information/ Many other countries including the EU have either banned or are in the process of banning their use. EUhttps://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/neonicotinoids-face-total-eu-ban/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-22335520https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/23/europe-poised-for-total-ban-on-bee-harming-pesticides US https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28167-bees-win-as-us-court-rules-against-neonicotinoid-pesticide/ https://www.ecowatch.com/maryland-to-become-first-state-to-ban-bee-killing-pesticides-for-consu-1882199363.html April 2018 - Bayer-Monsanto & DuPont with the Pioneer® LumiGEN™ (Pioneer seed with Monsanto Roundup Ready 2 Xtend coating) seed for first world wide release/sale in NZ.http://www.radiolive.co.nz/home/articles/rex/2018/04/innovative-maize-seed-treatment-first-of-its-kind-in-new-zealand.htmlhttps://www.pioneer.co.nz/ so Bayer-Monsanto Pioneer® LumiGEN™ herbicide coated seeds now growing in NZ sprayed with readily available Bayer-Monsanto neonicotinoid insecticides and pollinated by (now seemingly alleged) Bayer-Monsanto Transgenic bees. Is that not a field trial? Also Bayer-Monsanto is now bleeding money due to the US Roundup and other lawsuits so it now urgently needs to expand its chemical sales. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/monsanto-payment-cancer-roundup-1.4781751 https://www.consumerprotect.com/roundup-lawsuit-settlements-update/ http://www.rounduplawsuit.org/ The alternative is mosquitoes but that doesn't seem to fit NZ/Aussie. Mosquitoes field tested in Africa but bees here and in Australia where we have the compatible for field trial bee populations and horticulture as Europe/USA etc. A ban of all neonicotinoids by the EPA would knock any chance of a US-Pentagon/DARPA/Bayer-Monsanto Transgenic bee field trial in NZ I should think, but will it happen? That's it. No politics or patronisation intended. Just a simple heads up. I'll now take yesbuts advice. Link to post Share on other sites
M4tt 4,941 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 48 minutes ago, Tom Woods said: Well M4tt, I certainly went about this the wrong way and failed to check that main Monsanto transgenic bee link before posting. It certainly made a fool of me however I have managed to find a couple of remaining links from my source files that still work and refer to Monsanto actively engaging in transgenic bee research. Not nearly the best but all I have left now. 2017https://www.emfacts.com/2017/12/australia-and-new-zealand-to-be-test-sites-for-gm-insect-trials-courtesy-of-darpa-re-posted/ 2015 A sad old link but indicates what they were up to. Misleading title as it's a GE combination of a bees pollinating characteristics with the pesticide immunization properties of ants.https://www.naturalnews.com/050993_flying_ants_genetically_engineered_Monsanto.html Think about the 'coincidences'. October 2017 - The bulk of the Gene Drive files were released exposing the US DARPA/Pentagon involvement along with DuPont, Bayer-Monsanto and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. (DARPA) - US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. Bayer- Monsanto collaborating with the US Pentagon/DARPA Gene Drive and field trials to start in NZ and Australia.http://www.synbiowatch.org/2017/12/the-gene-drive-files/http://www.synbiowatch.org/2016/08/reckless-driving/ Bayer-Monsanto (now seemingly allegedly) developing a Transgenic bee. Remaining links above. In January 2018 - NZ and Australia are two countries that still permit the use of neonicotinoids.https://www.yates.co.nz/brand/confidor ‘Neonicotinoid based products, such as Confidor continue to be approved for use in New Zealand & Australian by the regulators EPA/APVMA/ ACVM who continue to monitor the latest science and have found no data to substantiate the claim that they are harmful to bees when correctly used. In fact, the APVMA have as recently as 12th January 2018 reconfirmed this position. For more information on this, please visit https://apvma.gov.au/node/28786’ There is now a more recent EPA evaluation (from August) in process.https://www.epa.govt.nz/news-and-alerts/latest-news/epa-calls-for-neonicotinoid-information/https://livenews.co.nz/2018/08/14/epa-calls-for-neonicotinoid-information/ Many other countries including the EU have either banned or are in the process of banning their use. EUhttps://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/neonicotinoids-face-total-eu-ban/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-22335520https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/23/europe-poised-for-total-ban-on-bee-harming-pesticides US https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28167-bees-win-as-us-court-rules-against-neonicotinoid-pesticide/ https://www.ecowatch.com/maryland-to-become-first-state-to-ban-bee-killing-pesticides-for-consu-1882199363.html April 2018 - Bayer-Monsanto & DuPont with the Pioneer® LumiGEN™ (Pioneer seed with Monsanto Roundup Ready 2 Xtend coating) seed for first world wide release/sale in NZ.http://www.radiolive.co.nz/home/articles/rex/2018/04/innovative-maize-seed-treatment-first-of-its-kind-in-new-zealand.htmlhttps://www.pioneer.co.nz/ so Bayer-Monsanto Pioneer® LumiGEN™ herbicide coated seeds now growing in NZ sprayed with readily available Bayer-Monsanto neonicotinoid insecticides and pollinated by (now seemingly alleged) Bayer-Monsanto Transgenic bees. Is that not a field trial? Also Bayer-Monsanto is now bleeding money due to the US Roundup and other lawsuits so it now urgently needs to expand its chemical sales. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/monsanto-payment-cancer-roundup-1.4781751 https://www.consumerprotect.com/roundup-lawsuit-settlements-update/ http://www.rounduplawsuit.org/ The alternative is mosquitoes but that doesn't seem to fit NZ/Aussie. Mosquitoes field tested in Africa but bees here and in Australia where we have the compatible for field trial bee populations and horticulture as Europe/USA etc. A ban of all neonicotinoids by the EPA would knock any chance of a US-Pentagon/DARPA/Bayer-Monsanto Transgenic bee field trial in NZ I should think, but will it happen? That's it. No politics or patronisation intended. Just a simple heads up. I'll now take yesbuts advice. I still don’t get what you are up to , and I won’t jump to assumptions . I know a little about the new Pioneer treated seed , but I can’t see why you’ve attached ‘Roundup Ready’ to your post as NZ does not import GE Roundup Ready maize seed . For those of you that don’t know , these plants can be directly sprayed with Roundup or Glyohosate and it will kill the weeds but not the maize . I would highly doubt NZ would ever get involved given the worldwide public backlash against Glyohosate ....... Anyway , for the record , your approach is still wrong Tom. Bombarding a post with multiple links with no attached blurb, or explanation of your own about the link or of what you are actually up to , never ever goes down well on this forum. I’d suggest you slow down, start again and explain exactly what you mean , for those of us too uninformed to guess Thanks 1 Link to post Share on other sites
kaihoka 2,975 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 I do believe that big profit driven corporations get away with what they can . Look at the banking industry in Aussie and the latest revelations. So nothing they do would surprise me . It's up to the consumers to stop them doing things that cause long term damage . But most of those things make life less convenient . Link to post Share on other sites
olbe 238 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Don't worry we are safe , its illegal to import any bees into NZ . 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Philbee 4,675 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 On 1/10/2018 at 9:11 PM, Tom Woods said: honey brands? Tom, your perspective appears to be one of economics which would seem rather narrow given the potential scope of the topic. Link to post Share on other sites
Scutellator 52 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 On 1/10/2018 at 1:11 AM, Tom Woods said: Hello, A question I put to you is - In your opinion what affect would the introduction of genetically engineered bees to NZ have on existing commercial honey brands? Thanks for any replies. Honey safety is a good concern. BUT - What effect GM bees will have on the industry in the foreseeable future - NONE. First of all, making them resistant to a pesticide doesn't mean they won't die from something else. And even if they are overall better survivors - alive bees and bees producing honey are still two different things. ( Keeping high immune response or/and detoxifying toxins needs a lot of metabolic energy) The second consideration is - If the bees can't reproduce themselves and interbreed ( to protect the intellectual property) - who is going to buy those bees on a regular basis? They will be more expensive, because of the higher production costs alone. AND the beeks, as we all know, just love to spend money (and not conservatively minded at all). The genetically improved bees is not a new concept. And the history already have provided evidence why the idea of superior bees so far have failed to be universally adopted. SO.... Those bees stand a chance only if the beeks have no other options at all Link to post Share on other sites
Popular Post Scutellator 52 Posted October 2, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) On 1/10/2018 at 12:18 PM, Alastair said: Hey, if someone could GM me a bee that don't swarm, I'd be in, LOL Some Apis mellifera sub-species indeed practically don't swarm (would endanger their survival in Nature) Breeding out swarming behavior is doable and relatively easy. So, yes, non swarmy commercial bees do exist and are very common on the EU market. But when the selection for low swarming index goes beyond a certain point, the bees sometimes even lose the ability to rear their own queens and without a beekeeper to put a new queen, the hive dies. The non swarmy bees for commercial use don't go to that extreme, but are still very useless for queen cell production (poor acceptance, small queencells) So calm down everybody. Breathe. Nothing new under the sun. The world is not coming to an end yet. Edited October 2, 2018 by Scutellator 5 Link to post Share on other sites
kaihoka 2,975 Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Scutellator said: Some Apis mellifera sub-species indeed practically don't swarm (would endanger their survival in Nature) Breeding out swarming behavior is doable and relatively easy. So, yes, non swarmy commercial bees do exist and are very common on the EU market. But when the selection for low swarming index goes beyond a certain point, the bees sometimes even lose the ability to rear their own queens and without a beekeeper to put a new queen, the hive dies. The non swarmy bees for commercial use don't go to that extreme, but are still very useless for queen cell production (poor acceptance, small queencells) So calm down everybody. Breathe. Nothing new under the sun. The world is not coming to an end yet. I am glad you have something nice to say about swarmy queens I have a few. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
john berry 5,636 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 God's pink ocean. Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Black 3,520 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 If anyone wants to have a sensible conversation about this (and the nation is having one - watch/read the News) start here; https://www.royalsociety.org.nz/major-issues-and-projects/gene-editing-in-aotearoa/ Disease resistance is one, but not the only one, particularly relevant to beekeepers. Link to post Share on other sites
yesbut 6,230 Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 Man that Kim Hill is annoying. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
cBank 801 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 On 2/10/2018 at 1:20 PM, Tom Woods said: A satire site? Well, I’ll be so it is! Funny that! Two days or so ago it wasn’t and for well over eight months it’s been a good site with a much larger page full of detail and now POW… a satire site. The Wayback Machine shows what a site looked like previously and a year ago that site was satire. I disagree with much of the GMO work particularly where it relates to the food chain, but approaching your cause like this is why those with actual points get lumped with loonies. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Don Mac 318 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I attended the Royal Society Te Aparangi seminar on Gene Editing in Primary Production in Hamilton last week. https://www.royalsociety.org.nz/major-issues-and-projects/gene-editing-in-aotearoa/ Get to one if you can - it is being held in Napier today. Gene Editing is coming at all Primary Producers 'faster than a freight train' according to Professor Barry Scott. It already being used in human health and in the UK they have already produced sterile malaria mosquitoes. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45628905 One surprise for the audience was that there are already 88 food products that have been produced by genetic modification (not gene editing) on the market in NZ. These have all been approved by Food Standards Australia New Zealand. None of these contain live genetic material. But it makes a joke of NZ being GE Free. I recommend reading the apple variety breeding example scenario 3 of the Discussion Paper. https://www.royalsociety.org.nz/what-we-do/our-expert-advice/all-expert-advice-papers/gene-editing-for-the-primary-industries/ They use a gene edit, then propagate new varieties and from the selected variety they remove the gene edit. Wow great science. No genetic modified apples when in production. I can see some big advantages for Manuka Honey. a) Developing myrtle rust resistant plants b) Developing varieties that produce more nectar. If we do not do this science Australia will and our beekeepers will loose out. The Royal Society should be applauded for bringing forward this discussion. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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