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38 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Prior to the manuka boom it was often said a queen was worth 10 lb's of honey, and it did tend to sit around that level.

So for us that sux at maths are you saying a mated queen is worth $18.18?

 

(10/2.2) x $4 = $18.18

Edited by flash4cash

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Hmm not so sure. The margin on plastic frames is pretty low as against other commonly manufactured items, and as to boxes, I can't buy timber and make one as cheaply as the pre cut kitset boxes come. Rather than prices drop significantly, my view is the sellers of these products will just sell a heap less than they used to. 

 

Also, I doubt that dropping prices would get the vendors much more sales because the bigger issue is that many will not be increasing hive numbers much, and stuff being a bit cheaper won't change that. Those who will buy, will buy anyway.

 

I did used to order frames 6 months in advance to ensure I would actually get them, no such issues now.

Edited by Alastair

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I have seen all this before. The collapse took three years longer than I thought to arrive but it is here . All those jealous of high manuka prices need not worry too much as the crop for a lot of the country is zero so a lot of those guys will be hurting more than clover produces and have  way higher costs and commitments.

The next thing you will see is everybody trying to sell their honey on the local market. That won't increase honey sales, it will just mean that existing honey packers sell less and supermarkets use the competition to screw everybody down meaning that those packers that are still buying honey will be forced to pay less and buy less. Prices going up and coming down is nothing new and has happened many times. Perhaps the only thing that is new in all this is that the price of honey for the last few years has been way higher than it has ever been.

 

In the past

 

I have seen hives offered for free.

I have seen hives left to die.

I have seen things come right.

What I haven't seen is just the sheer number of hives involved and what appears to be a deliberate attempt by certain parties to collapse the price of honey below the cost of production.

The only rational reason I can see for this is to try and remove a large percentage of New Zealand's beekeepers for corporate interests.

Panicking and fighting over limited markets is not going to help anybody. There are only so many things you can do at a time like this but one simple thing is to keep some honey back for feeding the hives in the spring and to leave plenty of honey on this autumn rather than feeding sugar.

It's going to be a bit of a bumpy ride but I suspect some of the rats will soon start swimming from the sinking ship leaving those of us who can to man the pumps and in the long run the ship will be a lot nicer without their droppings everywhere.

 

 

 

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Interesting comments John. 

 

I am not from a beekeeping family, but got my first bees as a schooboy in the late 1960's. The bees prospered and multiplied, so i considered making and selling beehives as a source of schoolboy pocket money. But discovered that beehives back then could not be sold for more than the cost of the equipment to make them, ie, no profit. 

 

That's how it was in the 60's.

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29 minutes ago, john berry said:

It's going to be a bit of a bumpy ride but I suspect some of the rats will soon start swimming from the sinking ship leaving those of us who can to man the pumps and in the long run the ship will be a lot nicer without their droppings everywhere.

 

Should be the quote of the year.

Luv it.

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@Alastair just look at how they all market up the price of the imported pieces.  Take a j hive tool.  They buy them for US99c each from china and sell them for $13.  How is it they all have exacatly the same margins on them all? It is classic price fixing. Same thing across most of their products. 

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When I mentioned to a certain manager about the competitors catalogue he said he had not seen it.  Interesting it been out for weeks and you have not looked at your major competitions price structures...this is after they change them...no need they already know what the prices will be ?

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On 22/01/2019 at 10:42 AM, Alastair said:

Saw some pretty grim faced beekeepers at the extracting plant yesterday ?

 

Ha ha, didn't think I looked that bad ?!

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I’m going to guess that the suppliers businesses will be experiencing a horrible slow down as well along with the inevitable job losses and everything that comes about with negative growth. 

I wouldn’t go about trying to pick them to pieces because next time you want supplies they just may not be there 

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I know that is why i do not say anything to them.  I just buy them direct from China myself.  I was suprised at how well they were doing in terms of year on year turnover.  It was down but not nearly as bad as I would have thought.   I would have pick double what it was. 

 

Not helped by me so far i have brought 1 pair of new gloves this season that my total spend.  Plus some Philbee Staples. 

Edited by flash4cash
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2 hours ago, flash4cash said:

So for us that sux at maths are you saying a mated queen is worth $18.18?

 

(10/2.2) x $4 = $18.18

 

Sorry Flash, missed your comment, yes at $4 a kilo the traditional model would be about 20 bucks for a queen. Not a great scenario for anyone but there it is.

 

More realistically some folks are getting $7 for bush, x's 10 / 2.2 ='s $31.80 for a queen. 35 bucks would be a nice round number and I imagine some folks would sell them for that if the chips were down. Bear in mind that now a days everybody and their dog is selling queens. Go back a few decades very few were, it was a tough business.

Edited by Alastair
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5 hours ago, Ali said:

 

On top of that it gives APINZ the power to ruin the family business beekeeper by way of quota (for hives) or other forms of restriction/control with a likeness to the fishing industry. 

 

 

Sorry, why do you say this?

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3 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

Sorry Flash, missed your comment, yes at $4 a kilo the traditional model would be about 20 bucks for a queen. Not a great scenario for anyone but there it is.

 

More realistically some folks are getting $7 for bush, x's 10 / 2.2 ='s $31.80 for a queen. 35 bucks would be a nice round number and I imagine some folks would sell them for that if the chips were down. Bear in mind that now a days everybody and their dog is selling queens. Go back a few decades very few were, it was a tough business.

I was talking  to a queen raiser the other day who was thinking of dropping his prices to $35. His orders were way down.

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45 minutes ago, flash4cash said:

@Alastair just look at how they all market up the price of the imported pieces.  Take a j hive tool.  They buy them for US99c each from china and sell them for $13.  How is it they all have exacatly the same margins on them all? It is classic price fixing. Same thing across most of their products. 

 

Plastic frames not though.  In Winter I had a bit of look at importing a container of frames from Chna.  I negotiated with three suppliers, and got to what I genuinely thought was the lowest price I could get them to.  There was nothing in it v the price being offered by one of the major bk suppliers.  Tight margins and volume is the way it seems to operate.

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Good info Jamo. Pretty sure that's where it will end, there is a natural relationship between the price of honey and the price of a queen.

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6 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

Plastic frames not though.  In Winter I had a bit of look at importing a container of frames from Chna.  I negotiated with three suppliers, and got to what I genuinely thought was the lowest price I could get them to.  There was nothing in it v the price being offered by one of the major bk suppliers.  Tight margins and volume is the way it seems to operate.

 

Not to mention dubious quality plastic you would probably get.

 

I know that at Ecrotek they opted to use high quality plastic to make a superior product even though margins were real narrow. They could have gone for the cheap stuff that looked the same but used to give us all broken lugs, but they didn't.

Edited by Alastair
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On 22/01/2019 at 8:36 PM, Alastair said:

No cuz it's got a use by date doesn't it?

 

I still haven't figured how this use by date you supposed to put on jars is meant to be calculated.

with honey the used by date is actually the standard lifespan of the container. (assuming local markets).

 

storing honey does have its risks. if HMF goes to high the honey may fail spec for certain markets.

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Matt,If you cannot get the price down from the supplier. Take glass jars for example.Cost of a pallet of 196ml[250gm] hex jars from a Wellington Supplier is about 57cents plus gst.Imported from the U.K./PER PALLET OF 3,300plus the lid at 14cents, imported from Italy.Same jar from China with the lid 15cents. The only problem is you have to buy 20,000.So am thinking of importing a load if any one is interested in purchasing some from me let me know.

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On ‎23‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 9:53 PM, Daley said:

 This is the biggest piece of the pie; 40% here.

Science and Research!

Probably mostly things that the BEEKEEPERS among us already know, basic common sense stuff ?‍♀️

Let’s throw a big chunk of other peoples money at this because it will look like we’re doing what the people want, and they’re more likely to say yes if we dress it up nice

 

Trying to make a puha look like a flower methinks.

 

 

Called me biased - because I am - but a remarkably short view of what science and research can offer.

 - It could cover benefits of the next honey variety.

 - New methods to combat pathogens and diseases like AFB - efforts that are either funded by other countries for NZ researchers or self-funded.

 - proposals to defeat potentially toxic chemicals and sprays to bees. (already happening. Thank @Don Mac for that)

 - legality and proposals around oxalic acid for varroa control

 

There has been a very clear list of issues that common sense or BEEKEEPER knowledge is not going to overcome

You will have heard me say it before @Daley - because you were at the Gisborne meeting - I am not in favour or against the levy: that would be unfair as I'm a hobbiest and am not required to pay it. What I *am* in favour of is research for industry issues. Issues that all other primary industries are addressing - except apiculture.

I'm a member of the @ApiNZ Science & Research group. No, there is no gravy train - all the members are on there voluntarily and receive no payment.

 

Its late at night - all this has been covered before. Read the revised levy  - or don't. Its everyone's decision.

Good harvesting folks

Edited by JohnF
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@JohnF can you put together a list of things research has contributed to beekeepers on the ground over say the past 5 -10 years.

 

Im thinking of research findings that have made a difference to beekeepers in their every day beekeeping life.

We already know about Manuka what else is there that maybe we don’t know ?

 

My concern is even more money will be going into projects that benefit a select few as is happening now with Manuka plantings on private farms, money going to beekeepers to trial double queening vs single brood. Money going into VSH queens ( what ever came of that ). 

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Like John F I really believe we need money for research.  A classic example would be the continuing lack of funding for passion vine hopper research. There are some potential parasites that could effectively eliminate this Pest which costs beekeepers vast amounts of money and is also a serious horticultural pest. The research would cost a lot of money and results would not be guaranteed, but that in itself doesn't make the research not worthwhile. The big issue for me is whether Apinz is a suitable body to manage the proposed funds.

I am 100% in favour of some sort of research levy ,

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1 minute ago, john berry said:

 The big issue for me is whether Apinz is a suitable body to manage the proposed funds.

I am 100% in favour of some sort of research levy ,

 

I received the email regarding the levy from the SNI beekeeping group and I really liked their take on it.

They were in favour of a levy but wanted one the same as Australia’s , which is something like 2/2.5c per kg and went entirely on research. No money going to fund beekeeping organisations no money going to fandoms to teach beekeeping skills etc. I would be much more inclined to go with this type of proposal rather than the blatant robbery that we will be subjected to if Apinz gets its levy across the line.

 

maybe with the Manuka harvest being a bit dismal in some areas there might be a lot more beekeepers voting no than there would have been has it been a bumper harvest.

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1 hour ago, frazzledfozzle said:

@JohnF can you put together a list of things research has contributed to beekeepers on the ground over say the past 5 -10 years.

 

Im thinking of research findings that have made a difference to beekeepers in their every day beekeeping life.

We already know about Manuka what else is there that maybe we don’t know ?

 

My concern is even more money will be going into projects that benefit a select few as is happening now with Manuka plantings on private farms, money going to beekeepers to trial double queening vs single brood. Money going into VSH queens ( what ever came of that ). 

@frazzledfozzle@JohnF

Yes, John can probably do this. Maybe he could also put together a list of all the co-ordinated funding the industry has put into getting such research done? The amount of money the industry has put into research during our boom cycle is ridiculously close to $0. I find it hard to believe that you can expect researchers to contribute to your bottom line when this is the case. Yes, there have been contributions from some beekeeping businesses but, considering the money that has been made in the industry over the last 10 or so years, this is a very small percentage of that.

Edited by Otto
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16 minutes ago, Otto said:

@frazzledfozzle@JohnF

Yes, John can probably do this. Maybe he could also put together a list of all the co-ordinated funding the industry has put into getting such research done? The amount of money the industry has put into research during our boom cycle is ridiculously close to $0. I find it hard to believe that you can expect researchers to contribute to your bottom line when this is the case. Yes, there have been contributions from some beekeeping businesses but, considering the money that has been made in the industry over the last 10 or so years, this is a very small percentage of that.

How many years did the manuka boom last , it seemed remarkably short , even by normal boom bust sequences .

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