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Varroa resistant bees coming soon!?


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21 hours ago, Philbee said:

I dont think it would be unusual to breed Bees within a operation within a relatively remote location that are somewhat more Varroa tolerant than the national average

After all, its been stated numerous times in discussions on this forum that its possible to improve ones own bees but very difficult to take that improvement and replicate across the country

This is the basis for argument that Breeding program Queens are bound to give mixed results when sold out of their parent operations 

 

The other point is that isolated sites are not as likely as densely populated areas to have varroa invasion from other hives , and perhaps this gives a false impression about the hives ability to with-stand varroa.

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Lol Winstones love me. This OA thing has ignited their Paper Tape sales. To give an example, Enough Staples to treat 1000 hives is the equivalent to 17-20 new house lots. Im the countrie

True. Don't rely on it because sometimes I'm a bit lazy and you'll catch me out, but they are very different. An organism has two basic types of defence mechanisms to increase its fitness when challen

The bees we really may need are in Puerto Rico.   Around 30 years ago africanised "killer bees" arrived in the island of Puerto Rico, nobody knows how, maybe it was a swarm from a ship.

11 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

The other point is that isolated sites are not as likely as densely populated areas to have varroa invasion from other hives , and perhaps this gives a false impression about the hives ability to with-stand varroa.

You hit the nail on the head there @CraBee, I think several claiming to have less varroa because of genetics or treatment method are in isolated areas - varstly different to the greater Auckland area for example where there are hives everywhere, all treated at different times (if at all).

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

Step 1- Stop thinking yellow or grey

if you were doing this with all consequence i'd have no problem with that neither.

i think last year when were having the big huha about importations, that's the note we closed on. you were going to bring yellow and gray together.

and everyone (including me) congratulated you on your announcement.

but all you wanted to do now (the dark bee thread)is produce commercial f1 crosses from "pure" yellow and carni strains.

 

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49 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

The other point is that isolated sites are not as likely as densely populated areas to have varroa invasion from other hives , and perhaps this gives a false impression about the hives ability to with-stand varroa.

Hi yes this is a good point.. we do have sites inbetween our sites .. we have sites about each 1k so it is not as sparsely populated as I thought.. thus we have bees who get more resistant when bred with our drones.. and less if they breed elsewhere

thanks

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2 hours ago, ReneeJones said:

We're not focused on hygienic behaviour that is just a side effect

Certainly it does appear that hygienic behaviour is not the only adaption. Queens from the island of Gotland, Sweden, appear to survive because their larvae do not provide the expected ‘cue’ for mite egg-laying and prevent the females reproducing. They show no evidence of any kind of hygienic behaviour. Researchers found three regions on three different chromosomes (4, 7, & 9) linked to the trait (QTLs) and have speculated which genes might be involved. And to return to the theme of our earlier sideline, these individual’s ‘resistance’ to the mite confers a colony level ‘tolerance’ (not all larvae are resistant).

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2 hours ago, tom sayn said:

if you were doing this with all consequence i'd have no problem with that neither.

i think last year when were having the big huha about importations, that's the note we closed on. you were going to bring yellow and gray together.

and everyone (including me) congratulated you on your announcement.

but all you wanted to do now (the dark bee thread)is produce commercial f1 crosses from "pure" yellow and carni strains.

 

You have no idea what I am up to. I produce the F1's to give customers a good, vigorous production Queen- that is called Queen Production.  Stock Improvement is something else entirely, and you have no real idea what I am up.  I have been  producing the hybrid production Queens for 2 seasons now.  Show me my announcement from last year, and your congratulations.  Some of us are at least trying to do something to improve our commercial bee stocks, and you just sit sniping from the sidelines.

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

and you just sit sniping from the sidelines.

like many others i was working on my own breed before we got flooded with carnies and had to rely on others to do the breeding for us.

 

 

1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

Some of us are at least trying to do something to improve our commercial bee stocks

just doing "something" doesn't necessarily improve  OUR commercial bee stock. no doubt canadian beekeepers appreciated the import of carnies to nz. a lot of nz beekeepers didn't.

 

1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

Show me my announcement from last year, and your congratulations

i can't be bothered searching through old posts. maybe one day i feel like it.

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5 hours ago, CraBee said:

 

The other point is that isolated sites are not as likely as densely populated areas to have varroa invasion from other hives , and perhaps this gives a false impression about the hives ability to with-stand varroa.

After my autumn treatment , which I try to delay until the migrant bees have left, I have very little sign of varroa till they all come back .

I am in the process of OA treatment and I will see what drop I get .

 

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Hmmmm ..... we have our own Varroa tolerant breeding program going here. It's high tech and highly unconfidential. Having lost 60 % of the operation last spring we have bred from the survivors ..... who seemed to have survived. I think we nailed it ?

Edited by jamesc
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4 hours ago, Dave Black said:

Wouldn't it be important to know, in this case, what quality the bees have that qualifies them to be labelled as 'varroa resistant' and how it's being measured?

 

To which bees do you refer Dave?

 

If the Puerto Rican ones, the linked article says they groom "very aggressively" if a varroa mite gets on them. In contrast to European bees, that do almost nothing when a mite gets on them.

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19 hours ago, Dave Black said:

Queens from the island of Gotland, Sweden, appear to survive because their larvae do not provide the expected ‘cue’ for mite egg-laying and prevent the females reproducing.

not sure if you refer to the project 15 years ago or a more recent one. if the first, from what i remember, those bees didn't show any difference in mite tolerance once taken off the island and trialed by other scientists.

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On 16/07/2018 at 5:42 PM, Dave Black said:

How many of you remember the days of suppressed reproduction; can it only be ‘hygiene’.

i never understood how  SMR (suppressed mite reproduction) turned out to be VSH (varroa sensitive hygiene) seemingly over night and without much discussion that could be observed from the "sideline". it seemed that those involved basically claimed the two are identical. which seems strange. the tool looking for smr was checking for missing offspring in capped cells. i would think you'd rather find missing parents in cells that have been uncapped by vsh bees? assumed at the time that it was probably a funding issue. funding was for smr, so vsh had to be identical to smr in order to continue with the at the time more promising vsh.

well that's just me shooting from the sideline again when all that is expected of me is applause when ever a scientist is celebrating a new triumph in varroa resistance. oh, and contribute of cos with$.

when a scientist once said to me " if there was no varroa, you'd have to invent it", (for all the funding) i decided to always ask uncomfortable questions. call it shooting from the sideline , i've seen that in germany ithe quetion "where is the benefit for the beekeepers of all this" has forced institutes to work together with beekeepers on a broad scale and pass on freely the fruits of their research.

now those scientist cry "i wish there was other funding than just for varroa resistance"

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13 hours ago, jamesc said:

Hmmmm ..... we have our own Varroa tolerant breeding program going here. It's high tech and highly unconfidential. Having lost 60 % of the operation last spring we have bred from the survivors ..... who seemed to have survived. I think we nailed it ?

Very good point James and one that those who haven't been in that situation may not appreciate.

why has your subsequent crop of Bees done better?

Maybe its the new young population of Queens

Or maybe your new systems or focus on the issue

New treatments are an obvious contender

Genetic selection is probably a long way down the list of possibilities due to the quick turnaround in your Hive numbers

Maybe all those Hive deaths created in effect an operation wide Brood break which made a big hole in your operation's Varroa numbers which now puts the focus strongly on your treatment  regime going forward because the Varroa could easily bounce back if this senerio is correct.

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2 hours ago, tom sayn said:

not sure if you refer to the project 15 years ago or a more recent one. if the first, from what i remember, those bees didn't show any difference in mite tolerance once taken off the island and trialed by other scientists.

D. Behrens et al, Three QTL in the honey bee Apis mellifera L. suppress reproduction of the parasitic mite Varroa destructor (2011)
Ecology and Evolution, DOI: 10.1002/ece3.17

 

"...We discriminated drone pupae with and without mite reproduction, and screened the genome for potential QTL using a total of 216
heterozygous microsatellite markers in a bulk segregant analysis. Subsequently, we fine mapped three candidate target regions on
chromosomes 4, 7, and 9. Although the individual effect of these three QTL was found to be relatively small, the set of all three had
significant impact on suppression of V. destructor reproduction by epistasis. Although it is in principle possible to use these loci for
marker-assisted selection, the strong epistatic effects between the three loci complicate selective breeding programs with the Gotland
Varroa tolerant honey bee stock."

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15 minutes ago, Dave Black said:

Although it is in principle possible to use these loci for
marker-assisted selection, the strong epistatic effects between the three loci complicate selective breeding programs with the Gotland
Varroa tolerant honey bee stock."

Can you re-tell this in allegorical english please Dave ?

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2 hours ago, Philbee said:

Very good point James and one that those who haven't been in that situation may not appreciate.

why has your subsequent crop of Bees done better?

Maybe its the new young population of Queens

Or maybe your new systems or focus on the issue

New treatments are an obvious contender

Genetic selection is probably a long way down the list of possibilities due to the quick turnaround in your Hive numbers

Maybe all those Hive deaths created in effect an operation wide Brood break which made a big hole in your operation's Varroa numbers which now puts the focus strongly on your treatment  regime going forward because the Varroa could easily bounce back if this senerio is correct.

Luck ..... did we just get lucky ?   I put  a lot of it down to the o/a dribble we used in the early spring ..... the bees really bounced back after that, and then the Apivar, and then more o/a cloths as we supered up, and then more Apivar and yet more o/a cloths as we pulled the strips out. There is no doubt about it the bees have not looked as healthy for  quite a few years.

The question is what shall we do this spring ..... we need to alternate the Apivar and I got burnt using the Bayvarol. More O/A as we do our first round for sure ..... maybe some of those fancy Staples that seem to be sucking up ?all the gib tape from the hardware stores.

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1 hour ago, yesbut said:

Can you re-tell this in allegorical english please Dave ?

You stuck on epistatic or marker-assisted? With epistasis the effect one gene has depends on some other genes that modify or enable it. The relationship could be synergistic or antagonistic. Imagine one gene coding for a protein while its pal codes for an enzyme that chops the protein up into something else.  Lots of characteristics come from an ‘assembly line’ and unless all the components are there it won’t happen. Marker assisted is just a technique for using something obvious to signal that the trait you want is present. Let’s suppose the three genes in this study just happened to be on chromosomes that also have genes that produce different coloured legs. If the off-spring turn up with red, yellow, and blue legs we know they carry all three of the target genes, but if a colour is missing we know that gene has not been passed on. What is more we know without having to raise brood and check, or kill the bee to analyse its chromosomes, saving time and heartache. In this case, a brief translation might read, three inter-dependant things in three different places put the result we'd like in the too-hard basket.

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36 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Luck ..... did we just get lucky ?   I put  a lot of it down to the o/a dribble we used in the early spring ..... the bees really bounced back after that, and then the Apivar, and then more o/a cloths as we supered up, and then more Apivar and yet more o/a cloths as we pulled the strips out. There is no doubt about it the bees have not looked as healthy for  quite a few years.

The question is what shall we do this spring ..... we need to alternate the Apivar and I got burnt using the Bayvarol. More O/A as we do our first round for sure ..... maybe some of those fancy Staples that seem to be sucking up ?all the gib tape from the hardware stores.

Na just rock up round home and jump on the guillotine 

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3 hours ago, Dave Black said:

D. Behrens et al, Three QTL in the honey bee Apis mellifera L. suppress reproduction of the parasitic mite Varroa destructor (2011)
Ecology and Evolution, DOI: 10.1002/ece3.17

 

"...We discriminated drone pupae with and without mite reproduction, and screened the genome for potential QTL using a total of 216
heterozygous microsatellite markers in a bulk segregant analysis. Subsequently, we fine mapped three candidate target regions on
chromosomes 4, 7, and 9. Although the individual effect of these three QTL was found to be relatively small, the set of all three had
significant impact on suppression of V. destructor reproduction by epistasis. Although it is in principle possible to use these loci for
marker-assisted selection, the strong epistatic effects between the three loci complicate selective breeding programs with the Gotland
Varroa tolerant honey bee stock."

info i was refering to was from around 2003/4.i'm in a hurry and i'll have to read this a few more times and then maybe find something to shoot it down with?

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 Dr Thomas Seeley (the Horace White Professor in Biology in the Department of Neurobiology and Behavior at Cornell University. The recipient of many honors and awards. He is the author of several books on honeybee behavior, including Honeybee Democracy (2010) and The Wisdom of the Hive (1995) [1] He was the recipient of the Humboldt Prize in Biology in 2001. He primarily studies swarm intelligence by investigating how bees collectively make decisions. He has studied wold Bees in remote locations that have learned to live with Varroa mite.) Many of his talks and lectures are on You-tube

According to him if we had done absolutely nothing about Varroa mite the Bees themselves would have sorted it out in 2 to 3 years. The problem for commercial Beekeepers is that they would have no income for that period of time while the Bees were sorting it out.

Quote from Dr Seeley " we use chemicals which produce stronger mites and weaker bees",

Quote from Dr Seeley; "In countries where they could not afford to treat for Varroa mite this is what has already happened."

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