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Markypoo

Small cell foundation sources

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Hi All

Been doing some reading this weekend in the joy that I didn't have to prepare lessons for today.

I am interested in the breeding of varroa resistant bees and how hive conditions can be altered to help this along, or at least make it harder for varroa to breed/survive. Using small cell foundation (4.9mm, 32mm spacing of bars etc).

I have a couple of keen girls in Year 11 that love doing, and winning, science fair. I am keen on getting them helping me set up and monitor an experiment at school. (I get helpers who don't need glasses to see fine detail!).

Does anyone have a source that sells plastic or wax foundation in 4.9mm.

I am not after a huge quantity. Maybe 10 sheets. Dave Cushman indicates that having some as a starter strip is sufficient to start bees transitioning to a smaller cell size.

I can't justify buying a roller and making my own.

 

Some links for interest.

 

https://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=56

 

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cellregression.html

 

 

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There is a lot about this topic buried on this Forum

The topic has been the undoing of at least one forum member and my advice would be not to involve students in this topic until you have been 3 years down this track
If you dig out the pages you may get an idea of where Im coming from

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1 minute ago, Philbee said:

There is a lot about this topic buried on this Forum

The topic has been the undoing of at least one forum member and my advice would be not to involve students in this topic until you have been 3 years down this track
If you dig out the pages you may get an idea of where Im coming from

 

Its the joy of the scientific method. Even an undesirable result is still a result.

 

Don't worry. It is not being taught as a be all end all of beekeeping. But could provide plenty of data for analysis for science fair. And something a bit different. Don't get too worried. it is only a vague idea. They are also thinking about creating sugar feeders with different UV colours to determine bee preference.

For what I am thinking of, I don't need small cell foundation anyway. Apparently they can be transitioned without it anyway.

 

I tried looking for it but everytime I try and use the search function on this site it comes up with an error.

 

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25 minutes ago, Markypoo said:

 

Its the joy of the scientific method. Even an undesirable result is still a result.

 

Don't worry. It is not being taught as a be all end all of beekeeping. But could provide plenty of data for analysis for science fair. And something a bit different. Don't get too worried. it is only a vague idea. They are also thinking about creating sugar feeders with different UV colours to determine bee preference.

For what I am thinking of, I don't need small cell foundation anyway. Apparently they can be transitioned without it anyway.

 

I tried looking for it but everytime I try and use the search function on this site it comes up with an error.

 

One of my significant learnings has been just how diverse Bee Hives are from one and other
This makes it very difficult to have any sort of reliable control in an experiment.
Experiments for me now are seasonal and involve 100s of hives 

In other words my whole operation becomes one experiment across the entire year and the subject of the experiment might be just a comparison of two different treatments

To even try and do an experiment across two sites is a risk because sometimes one site will naturally be totally different than the other.
Keep up the good work Mark, Im just saying

Had a good mate named Mark Bennett once, unfortunately he died in the early 90s in a commercial diving accident

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1 hour ago, Markypoo said:

 

Its the joy of the scientific method. Even an undesirable result is still a result.

 

Don't worry. It is not being taught as a be all end all of beekeeping. But could provide plenty of data for analysis for science fair. And something a bit different. Don't get too worried. it is only a vague idea. They are also thinking about creating sugar feeders with different UV colours to determine bee preference.

For what I am thinking of, I don't need small cell foundation anyway. Apparently they can be transitioned without it anyway.

 

I tried looking for it but everytime I try and use the search function on this site it comes up with an error.

 

I can get you some small cell size foundation.Just pm me if you have paid any money

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2 hours ago, Philbee said:

One of my significant learnings has been just how diverse Bee Hives are from one and other
This makes it very difficult to have any sort of reliable control in an experiment.
Experiments for me now are seasonal and involve 100s of hives 

In other words my whole operation becomes one experiment across the entire year and the subject of the experiment might be just a comparison of two different treatments

To even try and do an experiment across two sites is a risk because sometimes one site will naturally be totally different than the other.
Keep up the good work Mark, Im just saying

Had a good mate named Mark Bennett once, unfortunately he died in the early 90s in a commercial diving accident

 

Just trying to raise awareness of science for one, and the getting the kids to do stuff outside. As I have mentioned, we already rear bobby calves, shavers, hylines and cobbs. Do plant propagation and now bees.  But if they were looking at transitioning bees from large comb to small, they could remove a frame, pop a ruler on it, take a quick photo and peruse at their leisure. Over time we could see if it was working.

We got bees in langstroths as the back up and then we could have a play with other stuff just because we can. I have no need to make a profit from the school hives. In fact I am not allowed to under funding rules. I have to call the calf rearing a fund raising activity as it is. And now I know how easy it is to make a queen, if I have 2 strong hives I can do a lot.

 

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2 minutes ago, Markypoo said:

And now I know how easy it is to make a queen

If it's so easy, try it without bees ?

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1 minute ago, yesbut said:

If it's so easy, try it without bees ?

That would be a challenge. 

 

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All the small cell science has already been done and the whole thing is a load of mumbo-jumbo. It's even been studied by our own scientists here in New Zealand. It's one of those ideas that pops up like a cold sore every now and again and you just have to wait for it to go away. I'm all for science but science projects should have some credibility or at least be new.
Entrance size is one that comes to mind with a huge variation between beekeepers, you could also study whether a single central entrance or two separate entrances on either side gave better ventilation and hive health. A comparative study between conventional and top bar hives would also be illuminating.
 

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4 hours ago, Markypoo said:

 

 

I tried looking for it but everytime I try and use the search function on this site it comes up with an error.

 

 

Me too I think there could be a problem @Trevor Gillbanks

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ok now?

 

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10 hours ago, Bighands said:

I can get you some small cell size foundation.Just pm me if you have paid any money

Guess I didn't donate enough as I can't send messages.

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A modest donation probably wouldn't break the education system

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

A modest donation probably wouldn't break the education system

I donated modestly, possibly too modestly. I am not worried about breaking the educational system. Just wifey breaking me over the mounting costs of "those stupid bees".

 

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7 hours ago, Markypoo said:

Just wifey breaking me over the mounting costs of "those stupid bees".

 

Welcome to the club.

 

I find it best to stock up when wifey goes on holiday.  She doesn't see the stuff arriving & the bank statement/visa account gets miss-placed.

Out of sight out of mind.?

 

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On ‎9‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 10:43 AM, Bighands said:

I can get you some small cell size foundation.Just pm me if you have paid any money

Hi matey, Had a large block sitting on the front porch waiting for you, now inside ready to pck up and send. Don't know your new address but I'm at same. Same cellphone too. Send something snail mail and we'll talk turkey. Good to see you up and running again or at least a quiet amble. Tight budget as have a couple of other projects on so no PM for me. 

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On 9/07/2018 at 8:51 AM, Philbee said:

There is a lot about this topic buried on this Forum

The topic has been the undoing of at least one forum member and my advice would be not to involve students in this topic until you have been 3 years down this track
If you dig out the pages you may get an idea of where Im coming from

 

I found them. I have to say I face palmed several times as it was infuriating reading. Be interesting to see if any progress has been made.

 

I am more interested in the selection and breeding of varroa resistant bees than seeking to use small cell foundation as a silver bullet. I am, and will remain, too small a fry to make much of a difference myself. But if I treat all my bees the same, and some hives are weaker than others, then I know to requeen from my strongest hives. It seems clear that bees can be bred to be treatment free/or at least varroa tolerant,  as there appear to be bees all over the world that are, bred by different methods. 

 

I don't watch much TV and tend to get involved in new things. Beekeeping a recent hobby. So I read widely and varied on the subject and then play. Which is why I was rearing queens 12 weeks after buying my first nuc 28/10/17 (which is now 6 hives, including a topbar).  Initial readiings suggested small cell could be a thing, but my suspicions are that it is actually selection of VSH that is happening.  I should put my money where my mouth is. Down in Wanaka, where I take a school camp every year, the owner of the horse trekking operation assures me there is a wild hive in a pine tree that has been there forever. Maybe I should try and steal some brood or the queen!

 

Last year's thing was teaching myself to graft fruit trees. I now have a couple of trees with multiple varieties on them. I still want to have a go at woodturning one day too. Otherwise I get stuck doing school work 24/7. 

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On 9/07/2018 at 8:37 AM, Markypoo said:

 

Does anyone have a source that sells plastic or wax foundation in 4.9mm.

 

 

Funnily enough Ecrotek has plastic frames at 4.9mm. They have a couple of hundred but didn't specify FD or 3/4.

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11 minutes ago, Markypoo said:

Maybe I should try and steal some brood or the queen!

Common trap

A hive that is totally isolated might survive but not because it is Varroa tolerant, much more likely because it is isolated. 

After you have had a few hindered hives for a while you see all sorts of natural variations ranging from very poor to outstanding.
Trying to duplicate the outstanding is a fools pursuit
A far more achievable goal is to keep healthy hives by intervention

This may seem an unsustainable and short sighted approach but Im absolutely convinced that  as Unsustainable and short sighted as it may be, it will certainly take you further for longer than chasing the Varroa tolerance rainbow.

This is not to say that some level of Varroa tolerance cant be bred but we will probably be reliant on intervention for a long time to come
 

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Just now, Philbee said:

Common trap

A hive that is totally isolated might survive but not because it is Varroa tolerant, much more likely because it is isolated. 

After you have had a few hindered hives for a while you see all sorts of natural variations ranging from very poor to outstanding.
Trying to duplicate the outstanding is a fools pursuit
A far more achievable goal is to keep healthy hives by intervention

This may seem an unsustainable and short sighted approach but Im absolutely convinced that  as Unsustainable and short sighted as it may be, it will certainly take you further for longer than chasing the Varroa tolerance rainbow.
 

Yeah, I wasn't really planning on raiding a wild hive 4 hours drive from home. A bit of oxalic vapour now and then seems to have worked so far and is the work of minutes for my handul. of hives.

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5 hours ago, Markypoo said:

Funnily enough Ecrotek has plastic frames at 4.9mm. They have a couple of hundred but didn't specify FD or 3/4.

Find that very hard to believe but then I've been working on my Zombie Apocalypse kit. Flame thrower in good working order and excellent for those hard-to-light smokers as well. Stockpile of V so you can drink it and run much faster and if that fails you fill the cans with gravel and throw them to provide a distraction. Good luck with the beekeeping and like the sound of those multigraft trees, where did you source your root stock? Sounds like a good combo, beekeeping and growing fruit. A lot you could teach with that.

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5 hours ago, Jean MacDonald said:

Find that very hard to believe but then I've been working on my Zombie Apocalypse kit. Flame thrower in good working order and excellent for those hard-to-light smokers as well. Stockpile of V so you can drink it and run much faster and if that fails you fill the cans with gravel and throw them to provide a distraction. Good luck with the beekeeping and like the sound of those multigraft trees, where did you source your root stock? Sounds like a good combo, beekeeping and growing fruit. A lot you could teach with that.

Not sure why you doubt me. Email Ecrotek and ask them yourself. They said they don't normally order them in but they had some left over from a large order. About 240.

 

There won't be a zombie apocalypse. The biology just won't work. But the 28 Days later rage virus? A possibility. A global pandemic. Sure.

 

I personally am much much more concerned about abrupt climate change and what changing weather patterns will bring. Even the modest predictions are scary. Some are downright terrifying. I am not quite a prepper but I am building up an emergency kit. 

 

Got bees because my cherry and plum trees were extremely poorly pollinated. 8 cherries in total from 3 trees last year!  Orchard expanding to include pears, apples, feijoas, nashis, raspberries, blackberries, currants and peaches so hives should help.

 

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8 minutes ago, Markypoo said:

I am not quite a prepper but I am building up an emergency kit. 

I'm not quite either but i do keep a 20 litre of petrol for the freezer generator when the alpine fault goes

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