Breeding black queens

[Markypoo 515]

At the risk of upsetting a few of you, I am querying about breeding carniolans.

 

I am a new beekeeper and running italians on my lifestyle block and carnis at school (at the request of the principal, a beekeeper, because of their behaviour). I have been impressed this winter. While my italians are sulking in their hive after a -2 frost, as the soon as the sun is up the carnis are out gathering pollen.

 

I have discussed queen rearing with my classes. Some of the students in my senior agriculture class asked how I could make sure I didn't accidentally select for italian genetics. I had explained about mating flights and mating with multiple drones. They understand that the queens we have a pure carni but open mated so are producing a mix of pure carni and half italian offspring . 

 

The solution they came up with, as we are open mating, is to rear up several queens and only keep the blackest ones, to ensure a high proportion of carniolan genetics, and buy in Daykel queens every second or third year. Even though we will only be able to afford the Daykel commercial queens which I understand are pure carni but open mated.

 

Does this sound reasonable way to do it?

 

Mark Bennett

Mountainview High School

Timaru

 

 

 

 

 

[Markypoo 515]

I forgot to say, I am not planning a serious breeding program to do this, but I have enough student interest that it could well happen.

Theoretically could this work?

 

[Dave Black 3,520]

37 minutes ago, Markypoo said:

The solution they came up with, as we are open mating, is to rear up several queens and only keep the blackest ones

Sounds a smart class. I would add, the blackest ones producing black drones...

 

@David Yanke

might have time to offer a comment.

[Markypoo 515]

19 minutes ago, Dave Black said:

Sounds a smart class. I would add, the blackest ones producing black drones...

 

So keep them in a nuc until they start making drones and see the colour of them. Yeah that would work. Could easily make half a dozen 5 frame nucs. Wonder if we could make a mini mating nucs. Do they produce many drones in mini mating nucs? 

Hopefully we get a good harvest of honey this year as the kids are going to do one of the new Agribusiness units in Year 13 next year, marketing a product. They can sell the school honey. Maybe marketing queens as well.

[Dave Black 3,520]

Not a mini-nuc no. Your class might think about it and point out that not all of the drones you see are from the hive you're looking at, but we should keep it simple.

 

If we were being pedantic, you are Rearing and Selecting queens, rather than Breeding.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Dave Black

[David Yanke 470]

2 hours ago, Markypoo said:

At the risk of upsetting a few of you, I am querying about breeding carniolans.

 

I am a new beekeeper and running italians on my lifestyle block and carnis at school (at the request of the principal, a beekeeper, because of their behaviour). I have been impressed this winter. While my italians are sulking in their hive after a -2 frost, as the soon as the sun is up the carnis are out gathering pollen.

 

I have discussed queen rearing with my classes. Some of the students in my senior agriculture class asked how I could make sure I didn't accidentally select for italian genetics. I had explained about mating flights and mating with multiple drones. They understand that the queens we have a pure carni but open mated so are producing a mix of pure carni and half italian offspring . 

 

The solution they came up with, as we are open mating, is to rear up several queens and only keep the blackest ones, to ensure a high proportion of carniolan genetics, and buy in Daykel queens every second or third year. Even though we will only be able to afford the Daykel commercial queens which I understand are pure carni but open mated.

 

Does this sound reasonable way to do it?

 

Mark Bennett

Mountainview High School

Timaru

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mark, It is hard with open matings. I struggle like you do with heaps of yellow mongrel drones haunting all the Drone Congregation areas in my mating area.  I am ok with the hybrid colonies that result from those matings because they are a pretty good commercial bee, but for your students, it makes it difficult for them to achieve their breeding goals.  You need to get control over the matings.  Now that I know what you are up to, I will try to select a Queen that has mated true to type to send you next time. To get control of your matings, you can use isolation, mating muscle- flooding your mating area with your drones,  or Instrumental Inseminations, all a bit hard to do for you guys.  Any effort though, is better than no effort.  Good on your students!

[john berry 5,636]

Any hybrids between Italians and carniolan's have the potential for very uncertain temperament which would worry me if I was keeping them in a school situation. Generally the F1 hybrids are not as bad so if you can't afford pure mated Queen's then perhaps you should look at getting cells from a good breeder. If you want to raise your own then use the purest and quietest hive you have

[Markypoo 515]

1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

Hi Mark, It is hard with open matings. I struggle like you do with heaps of yellow mongrel drones haunting all the Drone Congregation areas in my mating area.  I am ok with the hybrid colonies that result from those matings because they are a pretty good commercial bee, but for your students, it makes it difficult for them to achieve their breeding goals.  You need to get control over the matings.  Now that I know what you are up to, I will try to select a Queen that has mated true to type to send you next time. To get control of your matings, you can use isolation, mating muscle- flooding your mating area with your drones,  or Instrumental Inseminations, all a bit hard to do for you guys.  Any effort though, is better than no effort.  Good on your students!

There is no real goals in mind. As I said I am impressed that on sunny days, even at a high of 9 degrees, we can see carniolans flying about.  They also seem very placid compared to italians.  Although I do have limited experience in either. Rearing queens is something we can do fairly easily at school, but i was worried we will water down the carni genetics pretty quickly.  in which case I wouldn't bother too much and stick with what I already have.

The whole senior agriculture course has changed due to industry demand for tertiary qualified workers. We are trying to get kids interested in primary production, from a science or commerce point of view. This year we have looked at biosecurity, with the kids researching stinkbugs (pretty scary if they get in). We will do marketing. So if we can make our own honey to sell, all the better. We already raise bobby calves, hyline or shaver chooks and have an orchard and gardens.

Bees open up a lot of things, like pollen analysis of honey. Even building topbars and nucs in tech class.

I also have a few kids who have family members involved in beekeeping and know more than me. One young fella has come down from Northland and worked with his grandad on manuka. 

I used the profits from last years calf rearing to buy hive equipment and a bunch of veils for school since my budget is a joke. It won't be going up anyone soon since the latest formula the ministry uses for funding has unsurprisingly cut our school's budget. I will be keen to buy a queen  off you later in the year as I am planning on setting up a topbar with observation windows in it, as well as the 2 langstroths.

The boss is a beekeeper and reckons I should have no more than 8 hives on site. That might be a tad excessive.

[Markypoo 515]

9 minutes ago, john berry said:

Any hybrids between Italians and carniolan's have the potential for very uncertain temperament which would worry me if I was keeping them in a school situation. Generally the F1 hybrids are not as bad so if you can't afford pure mated Queen's then perhaps you should look at getting cells from a good breeder. If you want to raise your own then use the purest and quietest hive you have

 

I am a wuss so will requeen at first sign of trouble. And far too keen on working hives wearing just a veil.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Markypoo

[Markypoo 515]

Photographer turned up a day early and the lads flogged all my gear so they could pose in the photo. I wasn't just trying to look tough.

 

[tommy dave 1,184]

not related to the original question - but an idea on the business of bees front could be to talk to your students about propolis, propolis mats, and the various ways that the propolis revenue stream can work. Pretty sure there are vids on here, also @Trevor Gillbanks has a good video on the topic.

[tommy dave 1,184]

4 hours ago, Markypoo said:

Hopefully we get a good harvest of honey this year as the kids are going to do one of the new Agribusiness units in Year 13 next year, marketing a product. They can sell the school honey. Maybe marketing queens as well.

hmm, sort out selling that honey with demand exceeding supply and you could end up extracting honey and buying it from local hobbyists who have extra supers of honey and no idea what to do with it

[frazzledfozzle 7,483]

1 hour ago, Markypoo said:

There is no real goals in mind. As I said I am impressed that on sunny days, even at a high of 9 degrees, we can see carniolans flying about.  T

 

Sunny days at 9 degrees there won’t be any nectar to collect so those bees are just going to consume more stores because they are active .

 

[Philbee 4,675]

37 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Sunny days at 9 degrees there won’t be any nectar to collect so those bees are just going to consume more stores because they are active .

 

Funny you say that Frazzle but today I found nectar in lots of Hives and some sites where all the hives have gained weight over the month
All it could possibly be is Spanish Heather which is in very strong Flower but it doesn't seem right

[jamesc 4,900]

8 hours ago, Philbee said:

Funny you say that Frazzle but today I found nectar in lots of Hives and some sites where all the hives have gained weight over the month
All it could possibly be is Spanish Heather which is in very strong Flower but it doesn't seem right

I think these days we have to learn to expect the unexpected.

[tom sayn 1,261]

might be five finger?

 

[tom sayn 1,261]

10 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Sunny days at 9 degrees there won’t be any nectar to collect so those bees are just going to consume more stores because they are active .

 

production will show if their choices pay off.  certainly wouldn't select for who takes off in the crappiest weather.

rather wouldn't select for color neither, but i won't go there.......

[dansar 5,524]

10 hours ago, Philbee said:

Funny you say that Frazzle but today I found nectar in lots of Hives and some sites where all the hives have gained weight over the month
All it could possibly be is Spanish Heather which is in very strong Flower but it doesn't seem right

The Spanish Heath in South Waikato and BOP has the heaviest flower set I’ve seen in the past 6 years. Lots of fresh nectar in my hives that are within foraging range of it.

[Philbee 4,675]

1 hour ago, dansar said:

The Spanish Heath in South Waikato and BOP has the heaviest flower set I’ve seen in the past 6 years. Lots of fresh nectar in my hives that are within foraging range of it.

Imagine if this was an early indication of the season ahead

[Philbee 4,675]

1 hour ago, tom sayn said:

might be five finger?

 

Could be but usually thats a August flower here.

But its worth a look next time Im out
Never even thought of checking that one

[yesbut 6,230]

1 minute ago, Philbee said:

Imagine if this was an early indication of the season ahead

I'm too busy imagining my Lotto win thanks

[Bighands 1,064]

Spanish Heath flowering well down here as well.

[kaihoka 2,975]

34 minutes ago, yesbut said:

I'm too busy imagining my Lotto win thanks

How much did you get .

I got $50 ,major win for me 

[kaihoka 2,975]

1 hour ago, dansar said:

The Spanish Heath in South Waikato and BOP has the heaviest flower set I’ve seen in the past 6 years. Lots of fresh nectar in my hives that are within foraging range of it.

It will be interesting to see how the hot summer effects the flowering in plants that develop next season's flowering wood over the previous summer .

[David Yanke 470]

14 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Sunny days at 9 degrees there won’t be any nectar to collect so those bees are just going to consume more stores because they are active .

 

Terrible trait flying in cooler conditions, better try to breed that out of them!  Fact for the day- Carnica winter on far less stores than Italian type bees.