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Dave@Becks

Secondhand Boxes

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Life can be a very risky business, but with no risk it would be quite boring.

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I can think of about 20 outfits that my father or uncle have brought up over the years and can only think of one that was clean. Most weren't too bad (5% or under) but some were close to 100% in a lot of those didn't show up till a second or third round in the spring. Would I buy secondhand hives that I could inspect?. Absolutely. Would I use any empty boxes that came with them? It would depend what I found in spring. Would I buy secondhand boxes with no live hives to check? Yes if they were dirt cheap and I had time to give them a full paraffin dip or in one case I remember well I brought two truckloads because I knew the history and I took them home and burnt everything except for the best of the boxes which got a full treatment.
One of the main reasons I have downsized in the last few years is that I have seen way too many good old beekeepers become unable to cope with their hive numbers and AFB always appears at this point.
Another thing to remember is that secondhand hives and gear were always cheaper than making new stuff in the past, in many cases way cheaper or even free. This is no longer the case and I would far rather have new gear for the same cost as old.

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the other thing to think about is your own ability to assess and then deal with any second hand gear you may buy. if you got that gear cheap enough then there is a risk/reward level that you would go to, some its to tough/scary to deal with anything but new gear, others buy gear and know that a percent of it they will loose.

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And so the spread of AFB will go on!

Yes, before anyone feels they have to tell me, it is spread by other means too. But why continue the obvious and easily stopped ways?

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I was just about to offer free on this site, 14 boxes, some 3/4 size, and a nuc box, used and new wood and plastic frames, and all other bee gear including full suit and gloves and various tools. Nothing more than 6 yrs old, all purchased new and only ever been sited in Takapuna. Mites got the bees, I fought them with proper approved chemical mite strips but the mites won. Neighbour is an organic/no real treatment believer, and no matter what I did my hives were continually re-infected with mites. His "organic" bees died too, surprise, surprise. Never saw any sign of AFB in my hives.  I have just been diagnosed as diabetic and I am taking heart medication that makes me susceptible to anaphalactic shock, so no more honey or bees for me. 

After seeing the opinions of most people on this site I guess I will have to get a permit to light a fire and burn the lot of it. I am now wondering if hive doctor floors and plastic frames and foundation make toxic smoke, and if so how will I safely dispose of them in an urban environment. 

As for the spread of disease, how is it that most people are happy enough to buy wax foundation where the wax has been sourced from multiple suppliers, from who knows where?  As hot dipping boxes in paraffin wax does not kill AFB spores then surely heating wax for foundation processing doesn't kill the spores either, and yet wax foundation is freely spread around the country by only a few suppliers.

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11 minutes ago, Moby Duck said:

I was just about to offer free on this site, 14 boxes, some 3/4 size, and a nuc box, used and new wood and plastic frames, and all other bee gear including full suit and gloves and various tools. Nothing more than 6 yrs old, all purchased new and only ever been sited in Takapuna. Mites got the bees, I fought them with proper approved chemical mite strips but the mites won. Neighbour is an organic/no real treatment believer, and no matter what I did my hives were continually re-infected with mites. His "organic" bees died too, surprise, surprise. Never saw any sign of AFB in my hives.  I have just been diagnosed as diabetic and I am taking heart medication that makes me susceptible to anaphalactic shock, so no more honey or bees for me. 

After seeing the opinions of most people on this site I guess I will have to get a permit to light a fire and burn the lot of it. I am now wondering if hive doctor floors and plastic frames and foundation make toxic smoke, and if so how will I safely dispose of them in an urban environment. 

As for the spread of disease, how is it that most people are happy enough to buy wax foundation where the wax has been sourced from multiple suppliers, from who knows where?  As hot dipping boxes in paraffin wax does not kill AFB spores then surely heating wax for foundation processing doesn't kill the spores either, and yet wax foundation is freely spread around the country by only a few suppliers.

Sorry to hear you have to give up but it’s clearly not worth the risk.

It’s a minefeild trying to do the right thing. 

I think if you want to offer them just make sure the person taking them is aware of the Risks and capable of dealing with the outcome if need be. 

 

Edited by nikki watts
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On 16/06/2018 at 9:25 PM, DuncanCook said:

@Old Timer didn't claim unequivocal support from @Daley he simply thanked her for " some personal support on this issue" and in that I think he was quite correct.

 

 

 

That was crabee, not Daley. Daley quoted crabees post (which was the supportive one). Therefore its been incorrectly attributed.

image.png

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Foundation wax can and sometimes does contain AFB spores and they are definitely not killed by the processing. It definitely behoves all of us to ensure any wax we process is uncontaminated but having said that for whatever reason foundation is not considered a risk material and I have never had an AFB that I could even remotely attributed to it.
Paraffin dipping does kill AFB spores but only at temperatures above 160° for 10 minutes.
I'm sure there will be someone out there who would love your gear.It all boils down to whether you are competent at identifying AFB or not. If I was setting up myself I would be quite happy to have the gear but would keep it quarantined for the first season just to be sure. Just be honest and upfront about the risks and try and make sure whoever you give it to is competent at dealing with AFB. As you would have gathered I am not a huge fan of secondhand gear but I'm also not a big fan of waste or burning plastic for that matter. Years ago when I had a 20% mortgage and no money I set up some hives of my own very successfully using someone else's AFB boxes which I paraffin dipped myself and I still have a few of those boxes.
You cannot get AFB from clean gear.
You cannot not get AFB from unclean gear.

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you don't have to burn gear that has not been on infected hives. take it to the tip if you can't find someone who is willing to take the risk which seems low in your case.

@Moby Duckbio security law overrules environmental law if something is afb infected, but burning plastic without an afb infection is actually environmentally criminal.

an other example why we should drive the afb sniffer dog idea forward. with all the great farm dog breeds and experienced dog trainers in nz this could be so successful. 

especially used gear away from the bees. so easy to do. isn't it a shame that we burn plastic in this age? think of all the plastic that will be burned when the manuka boom is over. unless we come up with a solution, the only logic consequence should be a ban on selling any more plastic beekeeping equipment. 

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Can someone please post very clear statistics of the proven incidence of afb transmission via second hand gear. 

 Then we can all make fact based choices.

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1 hour ago, Bush Bee said:

Can someone please post very clear statistics of the proven incidence of afb transmission via second hand gear. 

 Then we can all make fact based choices.

 

Why on earth would we want to let the possible facts get in the way of a good thread and discussion.

 

 

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It would like having unprotected sex with someone with aids you might not get it but why play with fire

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If I were to look at buying second hand gear Id buy the tin lids and good mats

Clean and Paint the mats, burn or dip the  boxes
Boxes arnt that expensive and if the cost of a the boxes is a deal breaker then you cant afford to be in this game.

 

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On 20/06/2018 at 12:55 PM, Moby Duck said:

I was just about to offer free on this site, 14 boxes, some 3/4 size, and a nuc box, used and new wood and plastic frames, and all other bee gear including full suit and gloves and various tools. Nothing more than 6 yrs old, all purchased new and only ever been sited in Takapuna. Mites got the bees, I fought them with proper approved chemical mite strips but the mites won. Neighbour is an organic/no real treatment believer, and no matter what I did my hives were continually re-infected with mites. His "organic" bees died too, surprise, surprise. Never saw any sign of AFB in my hives.  I have just been diagnosed as diabetic and I am taking heart medication that makes me susceptible to anaphalactic shock, so no more honey or bees for me. 

After seeing the opinions of most people on this site I guess I will have to get a permit to light a fire and burn the lot of it. I am now wondering if hive doctor floors and plastic frames and foundation make toxic smoke, and if so how will I safely dispose of them in an urban environment. 

As for the spread of disease, how is it that most people are happy enough to buy wax foundation where the wax has been sourced from multiple suppliers, from who knows where?  As hot dipping boxes in paraffin wax does not kill AFB spores then surely heating wax for foundation processing doesn't kill the spores either, and yet wax foundation is freely spread around the country by only a few suppliers.

 

Hi Moby, I'm not far away from you and I have a couple of sites in and around Takapuna.  In any event I've got a dipping run for new boxes in about a month from now, I could happily take your boxes - and am also happy to give you something for them - and I'll then put them through the dipper @160 for ten minutes at the same time.  As long as I scrape of all the excess wax on the boxes, which is not that hard to do, it should be fine.  Not the frames though thanks - or other gear, just boxes.  Saving the planet, one box at a time...:-)

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6 hours ago, glynn said:

It would like having unprotected sex with someone with aids you might not get it but why play with fire

are you saying after both acts buying second hand gear and the above sex act you will feel a burning sensation.

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On 17/06/2018 at 6:35 PM, john berry said:

I can think of about 20 outfits that my father or uncle have brought up over the years and can only think of one that was clean. Most weren't too bad (5% or under) but some were close to 100% in a lot of those didn't show up till a second or third round in the spring. Would I buy secondhand hives that I could inspect?. Absolutely. Would I use any empty boxes that came with them? It would depend what I found in spring. Would I buy secondhand boxes with no live hives to check? Yes if they were dirt cheap and I had time to give them a full paraffin dip or in one case I remember well I brought two truckloads because I knew the history and I took them home and burnt everything except for the best of the boxes which got a full treatment.
One of the main reasons I have downsized in the last few years is that I have seen way too many good old beekeepers become unable to cope with their hive numbers and AFB always appears at this point.
Another thing to remember is that secondhand hives and gear were always cheaper than making new stuff in the past, in many cases way cheaper or even free. This is no longer the case and I would far rather have new gear for the same cost as old.

Whats your process on dipping to steralise boxes @john berry? Is it as reliable as they say it is?

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My main box dipper is a push them in one end type and out the other which is not suitable for AFB sterilisation so I use my smaller dipper which can take six boxes at a time but only comes just over halfway up the box. I do 10 minutes and then turn them over. I have never seen an AFB I could atribute to a properly treated box. Having said all that I have only had one AFB in the last four years and I just burnt everything. These days I would use a thermometer for accuracy but way back when we just heated it up until it started smoking and then spat in it. If it crackled and banged then the paraffin was hot enough.
As a footnote I have never scorched boxes but I used to have a few that had probably been scorched 40 years before and I have seen AFB from those boxes after all that time. I don't know where the scorched boxes came from but in the end I burnt the lot.
 

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5 minutes ago, john berry said:

My main box dipper is a push them in one end type and out the other which is not suitable for AFB sterilisation so I use my smaller dipper which can take six boxes at a time but only comes just over halfway up the box. I do 10 minutes and then turn them over. I have never seen an AFB I could atribute to a properly treated box. Having said all that I have only had one AFB in the last four years and I just burnt everything. These days I would use a thermometer for accuracy but way back when we just heated it up until it started smoking and then spat in it. If it crackled and banged then the paraffin was hot enough.
As a footnote I have never scorched boxes but I used to have a few that had probably been scorched 40 years before and I have seen AFB from those boxes after all that time. I don't know where the scorched boxes came from but in the end I burnt the lot.
 

Where would i likely be able to buy a quality wax dipper from? Or would i be best to make one?

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2 minutes ago, Jaspur M said:

Where would i likely be able to buy a quality wax dipper from? Or would i be best to make one?

one on trade me for around $700 

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1 hour ago, kevin moore said:

one on trade me for around $700 

Could you post link @kevin moore? I just had a search but no luck

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On 20/06/2018 at 12:55 PM, Moby Duck said:

I have just been diagnosed as diabetic and I am taking heart medication that makes me susceptible to anaphalactic shock, so no more honey or bees for me. 

 

That is a bit worrying, I am also taking medication for heart and had not realised it could have an effect, can't find anything specific in the list of side effects for mine but am certainly going to talk to the Doc on my next visit.

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@Jaspur M email these guys,they make all sizes of dippers and list them on trademe.

hardyhivezzz@gmail.com

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7 hours ago, Phil46 said:

@Jaspur M email these guys,they make all sizes of dippers and list them on trademe.

hardyhivezzz@gmail.com

yep thats the chaps that had the dipper i was thinking of, but sorry it was $850.00 not $700.00

the listing number was 1668950921

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