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Secondhand Boxes

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Sad to see someone selling lots of secondhand boxes with frames on Alexandra Buy Sell on Facebook!

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red-hot afb spot too.

who is selling?

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Not sure , I messaged them saying that and were they explaining to people about the risk of secondhand gear. They didn't seem interested.

 

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Where's Rene ....?

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On 13/06/2018 at 9:38 PM, Dave@Becks said:

Not sure , I messaged them saying that and were they explaining to people about the risk of secondhand gear. They didn't seem interested.

 

Sounds suspicious.

It is definitely buyer beware with this sort of thing, people should know better than to buy secondhand gear off a stranger especially nowadays.

End up with a very expensive load of firewood

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On 13/06/2018 at 6:25 PM, Dave@Becks said:

Sad to see someone selling lots of secondhand boxes with frames on Alexandra Buy Sell on Facebook!

Personally I can't find anything wrong with selling second-hand gear. Good on them I say, if they can recover some of the expense that has been put into their beekeeping hobby/business then that is well and good. No one sells gear knowing that there may be a problem with it - rot, AFB or otherwise. I don't think that anyone is in a position to criticize over this issue, you might as well say that no one should sell beehives unless the gear is all brand new. C'mon get real! 

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7 minutes ago, Old Timer said:

No one sells gear knowing that there may be a problem with it - rot, AFB or otherwise.

That Tui ad springs to mind

 

7 minutes ago, Old Timer said:

I don't think that anyone is in a position to criticize over this issue, 

Rubbish

 

8 minutes ago, Old Timer said:

you might as well say that no one should sell beehives unless the gear is all brand new.

That would that help with the fight against AFB wouldn't it ?

 

9 minutes ago, Old Timer said:

C'mon get real! 

The reality is there ARE scoads out there who know better, as well as uneducated newbies.

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On top of that angry post, I do note that most of the criticism comes from hobbyists, whom are usually only buying new, and have the time and patience to keep their hives sparkling and fresh. If you are keeping bees to make a living from,  then keeping hives looking pretty is the farthest thing from your mind. I know from experience that the building up stage -  from being a hobbyist to a semi-commercial (not having just won lotto), one tends to buy a lot of second hand gear from those selling out. Some of it is rough, but as long as the bees are contained within and the hive can turn a profit then that is all that matters. 

I don't want to get into a long winded argument over the pros and cons of selling second hand gear, (and yes I know that there are more cons than pros), but I have been lucky with not buying anything with AFB. That shows that the beekeepers that sold the gear were on top of their game in the detection and eradication of BL, and back in those days the problem was far more widespread than it is now. 

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55 minutes ago, Old Timer said:

Personally I can't find anything wrong with selling second-hand gear. Good on them I say, if they can recover some of the expense that has been put into their beekeeping hobby/business then that is well and good. No one sells gear knowing that there may be a problem with it - rot, AFB or otherwise. I don't think that anyone is in a position to criticize over this issue, you might as well say that no one should sell beehives unless the gear is all brand new. C'mon get real! 

Bro....

I really hope your being facetious

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12 hours ago, Old Timer said:

I do note that most of the criticism comes from hobbyists, whom are usually only buying new, and have the time and patience to keep their hives sparkling and fresh. If you are keeping bees to make a living from,  then keeping hives looking pretty is the farthest thing from your mind. I know from experience that the building up stage -  from being a hobbyist to a semi-commercial (not having just won lotto), one tends to buy a lot of second hand gear from those selling out. Some of it is rough, but as long as the bees are contained within and the hive can turn a profit then that is all that matters. 

 

And most of the people advocating the sale of 2nd hand gear are old timers, stuck in the past with antiquated views and practices that put the entire industry at risk.

Commercials selling up to the industry don't chuck a couple of old boxes up on trademe or facebook. They sell their business or gear as a going concern and should provide resords

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46 minutes ago, Grant said:

 

And most of the people advocating the sale of 2nd hand gear are old timers, stuck in the past with antiquated views and practices that put the entire industry at risk.

Commercials selling up to the industry don't chuck a couple of old boxes up on trademe or facebook. They sell their business or gear as a going concern and should provide resords

 

You lot are being rough on @Old Timer he is simply saying he thinks second hand gear can be sold.   He accepts there are cons to it.  As a buyer if you have confidence in the seller, then why not?  If it was a commercial transaction you could even say that 10-20% of the purchase price will be held back for six months - no AFB it gets paid out, if AFB then an adjustment.

 

AFB is just one risk of many in the decision making eg they say the Queens are three months old, are they really, or three years old?  

 

There are thousands upon thousands of nucs sold ever year- would you stop that trade?  

 

I certainly don't think hobbyists should be buying second hand gear though.....

 

And it is no argument to say a business may be sold as a going concern so that is ok, there could be plenty of boxes harbouring AFB spores in there.

 

And finally if the gear had sub-clinical AFB in it then the horse has bolted.  It does not matter who owns it...

 

 

Edited by CraBee
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24 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

You lot are being rough on @Old Timer he is simply saying he thinks second hand gear can be sold.   He accepts there are cons to it.  As a buyer if you have confidence in the seller, then why not?  If it was a commercial transaction you could even say that 10-20% of the purchase price will be held back for six months - no AFB it gets paid out, if AFB then an adjustment.

 

AFB is just one risk of many in the decision making eg they say the Queens are three months old, are they really, or three years old?  

 

There are thousands upon thousands of nucs sold ever year- would you stop that trade?  

 

I certainly don't think hobbyists should be buying second hand gear though.....

 

And it is no argument to say a business may be sold as a going concern so that is ok, there could be plenty of boxes harbouring AFB spores in there.

 

And finally if the gear had sub-clinical AFB in it then the horse has bolted.  It does not matter who owns it...

 

 

Prior to the gold rush I would be in agreement with you.

 

Now if I see someone selling gear or hives I’m instantly suspicious.

 

There are too many players in the game that lack the level of skill required to keep bees, often when they figure this out the hard way by killing all their hives they try to recoup some of their costs by offloading their gear.

These people often have no idea why their hives died and aren’t really bothered wether or not they create problems for other beekeepers with their diseased gear because their interest in bees in the first place was solely a financial one and they’re only worried about trying to get their money back.

 

My advice to anyone would be

Do not buy used gear off anyone you don’t know, or who doesn’t come highly recommended by someone you know well and trust.

Because it is not worth it.

 

I started from the ground with all new gear, you do not have to buy other people’s old rubbish and if your smart you won’t.

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41 minutes ago, Daley said:

I started from the ground with all new gear, you do not have to buy other people’s old rubbish and if your smart you won’t.

not sure how cheap secondhand gear is tending - price has to be the motivator for people doing the buying right?

For those looking at buying big lots of gear - well, hopefully anyone buying in volume is making an educated gamble.

 

For hobbyists...

wondering out loud about clubs buying in a pile of kitset gear and having a meeting or two where people can buy the gear at cost and assemble on-site. Hell, maybe even a dipping or painting day? That might remove the incentive to buy 'bargain secondhand gear' perhaps?

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How many times has there been a load of old gear sold off then down the track the buyer ends up with a AFB problem.

I think it can only get worse as it comes to paying for the new ute or spending money on checking hives / money on verroa treatments / ect.

Someone thinks they are getting the deal of a lifetime but just ended up with someone's problem/junk.

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3 hours ago, Grant said:

 

And most of the people advocating the sale of 2nd hand gear are old timers, stuck in the past with antiquated views and practices that put the entire industry at risk.

Commercials selling up to the industry don't chuck a couple of old boxes up on trademe or facebook. They sell their business or gear as a going concern and should provide resords

 

I don't agree with your description of people trading used gear.  All hives are 'second hand' empty or full-  are all sellers as you describe? 

 

I don't know anything about the gear for sale.  All purchases are risk based relying on trust, agreements and research.  You could buy beehives or even a business as a  going concern and be told 'no afb' with nothing ever declared and get bouts of the clap for years there after.  That's happened plenty of times. 

Just the same, you could be buy used gear and be absolutely fine- offering great value and opportunity.  I have bought used gear in the past and have and would sell 'used' gear empty or full - and don't appreciate being described as above. 

Sure, 'ideally' everything new. Or with bees/brood to help identify/establish AFB- though AFB could be latent to appear later. 

World's not ideal. With Old Timer  

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I agree with @CraBee although with the caveat that for the last 20 odd years we have only used new  equipment in our operation , we have bought 2nd hand gear in the past both from commercials and hobbiest beekeepers , we kept all second hand gear in selected sites for a couple ofseasons before incorperating fully into the rest of the business , the only times we picked up AFB was from the hobby gear after about the third time was when we decided to close shop and only use new gear

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4 hours ago, Daley said:

You lot are being rough on @Old Timer he is simply saying he thinks second hand gear can be sold.   He accepts there are cons to it.  As a buyer if you have confidence in the seller, then why not?  If it was a commercial transaction you could even say that 10-20% of the purchase price will be held back for six months - no AFB it gets paid out, if AFB then an adjustment.

 

AFB is just one risk of many in the decision making eg they say the Queens are three months old, are they really, or three years old?  

 

There are thousands upon thousands of nucs sold ever year- would you stop that trade?  

 

I certainly don't think hobbyists should be buying second hand gear though.....

 

And it is no argument to say a business may be sold as a going concern so that is ok, there could be plenty of boxes harbouring AFB spores in there.

 

And finally if the gear had sub-clinical AFB in it then the horse has bolted.  It does not matter who owns it...

 

1 hour ago, Lindaloo26 said:

I don't agree with your description of people trading used gear.  All hives are 'second hand' empty or full-  are all sellers as you describe? 

 

I don't know anything about the gear for sale.  All purchases are risk based relying on trust, agreements and research.  You could buy beehives or even a business as a  going concern and be told 'no afb' with nothing ever declared and get bouts of the clap for years there after.  That's happened plenty of times. 

Just the same, you could be buy used gear and be absolutely fine- offering great value and opportunity.  I have bought used gear in the past and have and would sell 'used' gear empty or full - and don't appreciate being described as above. 

Sure, 'ideally' everything new. Or with bees/brood to help identify/establish AFB- though AFB could be latent to appear later. 

World's not ideal. With Old Timer  

 

A Thank You to Daley and Lindaloo26 for some personal support on this issue. Yes I may be an old timer whom it appears has old timer views, but I do move with the times and have been in this business for 39 years. You can't stay that long sitting on your hands and keeping outdated practices alive and expect not to be hauled up by Assure Quality or any other up-to-date neighbouring beekeeper about changing your ways pronto.I am one of the first groups in Otago to hold a DECA, and I do a revision course every 8 - 10 years just to be on the safe side. Being reasonably informed over the politics of NZ beekeeping I feel that I am not stuck in the past, with old views and old practices. My views toward second hand gear remains firm, fully supporting the selling of used equipment. Not all businesses can be sold as a going concern. Some, like mine, has been broken up and sold off all around the South Island. I still will be selling more beehives this coming Spring, and hopefully the remainder of my 3/4 honey supers. Now, if you look on Trade Me at all the hives for sale around the country, look at the equipment the bees are in, the hobbyist hives are spic and span. Some of the commercial hives have new paint, some are older - well used. Now you can look as hard as you want but you cannot detect the BL spores. In my career I've had to burn hives in old gear but also an entire yard of brand new hives, from the floors to the roofs, everything in the fire. 

 

I'm sick of hearing (actually reading) these brain-washed theories that old gear HAS  BL spores in it and new gear doesn't. What a load of ____ .

Most of these theories come from over-excited bee club meetings where there is a speaker (who usually deems him/her self an expert) drumming the same old tune into the unwary hobbyist. I sometimes go to a meeting just for fun, but every time I come away disheartened by the bull____ that I've been subject to hear for the past hour or so. I'm so tempted to step in and put matters straight but then I know that I'd be hounded by 60+ hobbyists for the next few weeks. This does not accomplish much unless I am the speaker at their meeting. I have done this once, with little degree of success due to the 'know-it-all' who repetitively interrupts with challenging remarks to everything I have to say. This person is the usual speaker who really doesn't know right from wrong. Anyways, I'm way off the subject here so I'll bring this rant to an end.

 

Thank you.

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2 hours ago, Old Timer said:

Thank You to Daley and Lindaloo26 for some personal support on this issue

Daley isn't supporting you though. You've misquoted both the person and the post. 

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1 hour ago, Grant said:

Daley isn't supporting you though. You've misquoted both the person and the post. 

@Old Timer didn't claim unequivocal support from @Daley he simply thanked her for " some personal support on this issue" and in that I think he was quite correct.

 

It is almost inevitable that all new beekeepers will start with second hand kit even if it is just the frames that their first bees arrive on (whether bought or donated) the only alternative I can see would be to purchase all new gear and then go and catch a swarm, while I suppose that is possible I doubt many start that way.

 

I am sure that there are unscrupulous second hand car dealers out there selling vehicles that are a danger to buyers and other road users but that is not a reason for nobody to ever buy a used car.

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Yes I am a hobbyist  beekeeper , I put this post here as it not so much the selling of the second hand gear , more that there is a history of AFB in the area and any potential purchaser of this gear needs to be informed of this before purchasing.

 

 

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As I swot up from the Ron Goodwin text for an upcoming AFB recognition course at the other end of the experience spectrum (beginner hobbiest) I read this thread with some dismay. The “elimination” of AFB is the stated goal for NZ but this brings the practicality of that reality into focus. I’m not sure the extent commercials frankly engage in this forum but comment from big outfits on the topic would be interesting. Forgive the naivety but, for example, would the expectation be all second hand boxes be wax dipped by the purchaser?

Edited by Timw

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My view has always been... 2nd hand gear (boxes, frames, excldrs mats and floors ) are dangerous without a history.. 

frames I would burn but all dippable gear would get paraffin treated for 10mins at 170. 

Now just the other day I have learnt, through having the AFB sniffer dogs on the job, that even re dipped boxes have been indicated on.. which opens up a whole new thought process regarding the so called 'sterilisation' of infected gear. 

AFB is out there that's just fact, you should  skill yourself on finding and identifying it at EVERY opportunity, then dealing with it by fire as soon as possible. 

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2 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

i agree with the old timer.

Right then, we all agree there is a risk of disease in buying second hand gear.

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