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Philbee

AFB Costs 6% of Beeks Gross return

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16 hours ago, Alastair said:

 

Do it. Then you can find out what an easy number it is. (no symbol for cynical grin B|)

Hey Im sure its been like pushing a turd uphill with a pointed stick and Im sure plenty of people have done well trying and will continue to do so
At some point the industry has to step up and suggest the pointed stick be exchanged for a shovel 

This suggestion is not likely to find favor with those who have mastered the pointed stick
 

Edited by Philbee
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Agreed Phil. End of day it's run by beekeepers, as a group they decide what the funding is and how it is run.

 

Me personally, I'd like to see more funding which would allow a more pro active regime, as outlined in the latest plan. But will the majority agree? Hope so but not sure. 

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21 hours ago, Philbee said:

It will take new legislation to deal with the problem now and that legislation would be very unpopular along with the govt that introduces it.

cool thing is that beekeepers that would be upset are a very small percentage of voters, and if introduced with urgency it would have two years to work and if it did it might result in very few of them being upset. Have a yarn to jonesy

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21 hours ago, Bron said:

Think we may have a problem, not enough knowledge, not enough experience, not enough honesty and integrity.:IMG_0380:

 

i liked the article by the new guy in the latest beekeeper, cancelling DECAs, inspecting their operations, and charging them for it sounds like at least a small stick (possibly pointed, and better replaced with a shovel) to complement the carrot. I could be being naive.

Edited by tommy dave

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bit more funding in this area would be great, there seems to be a big increase in AFB, every one i talk too has it or know sone one who has, every 2nd day theres another txt with 3/4 afb alerts on it, this year i have already burned 3 hives, thats a first,

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Every cent I have ever paid for the AFB levy has gone into sorting out somebody else's AFB problem. Resources are targeted towards problem beekeepers or potential problem beekeepers which makes more sense than randomly targeting everybody but times have changed along with technology and very soon we should be able to detect infected honey easily and relatively cheaply. If everyone had to submit a small sample of their extracted honey from every run (hopefully they can be batched up to save costs) it would soon become very obvious who had a problem and all that money I have been paying could be targeted with much greater precision. I'm not sure but I think this would require a change in the rules\laws.
It would be wrong to say that what we have now hasn't worked because it has and it would be a lot worse if we didn't have it but it could work so much better. I think we will always need to check our hives properly even with new technology like genetic honey sampling and sniffer dogs as well as potentially electronic sniffers but new technology along with some decent penalties for recidivist offenders would take is a long way towards the official goal of eradication.

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In all honesty, I think the problem is tooo big for the agency to grasp and get control of.  There are too many people out there keeping bees who lack the experience or diligence to recognise the disease when it needs recognising ..... coupled with that the fact that the agency is reluctant to embrace new technology means that we are going to get the same old same old for quite a while yet. I would suggest that AFB is just something we live with and find some other verification scheme to curry favour with our potential export markets. Those operators that have an eagle eye and care will survive, those that don't will perish in the burning drum.

Edited by jamesc
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I like   what John said about every cent going to someone elses problem

Looking at the map it appears that the problem starts or at least is harbored close to the urban areas.

If these infections arnt dealt with then there will always be infections out in the Honey country

The way I read the map, if you burnt every infected hive out in the sticks it wouldnt change the color of the map at all because the problem is close to town yet its the big players with the remote hives that will be paying
I say reduce the hives from the redest zones because trying to whip them into shape will be a prohibitively  expensive waste of time that will see the trough dwellers returning year after year requesting more funding

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

Looking at the map it appears that the problem starts or at least is harbored close to the urban areas.

 

The reported ones, yeah.

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12 hours ago, tommy dave said:

i liked the article by the new guy in the latest beekeeper, cancelling DECAs, inspecting their operations, and charging them for it sounds like at least a small stick (possibly pointed, and better replaced with a shovel) to complement the carrot. I could be being naive.

i think cancelling the DECA wont do much, just put you in a negitive mode, i think they would be better working along side the person that has the problem help sort things out, 

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When I did my DECA it was all theory .

There was no hive to look at with AFB, no AFB to smell.

When I look through my hive for AFB I am not that confident that I would not miss it .

 

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21 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

When I did my DECA it was all theory .

There was no hive to look at with AFB, no AFB to smell.

When I look through my hive for AFB I am not that confident that I would not miss it .

 

 

I have never smelt AFB maybe because the AFB I have seen has only been a couple of cells rather than a rotten hive.

someone once said if you know what healthy brood looks like you will know  when something doesn’t look right.

you may not catch it when it’s just a few cells but I’m pretty sure you have been in your hives and interested in what you are looking at long enough and often enough to pick somethings up before it gets to the stage of being rotten or robbed.

 

i think any hobbyist keeping bees should be able to pick up the phone and get someone out to check a hive they suspect has AFB and if it’s confirmed then it’s dealt with by that contacted person from that moment forward.

 

look for AFB every time you are dabbling in the brood nest even if it’s just one or two frames.

Edited by frazzledfozzle
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7 hours ago, Alastair said:

 

The reported ones, yeah.

Ive considered that very issue and conclude that the likely lack of reporting is probably proportional so that the red could could move outwards a little and the white hot areas could actually burst into flames 

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9 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

i think any hobbyist keeping bees should be able to pick up the phone and get someone out to check a hive they suspect has AFB and if it’s confirmed then it’s dealt with by that contacted person from that moment forward.

The cost is prohibitive
The respondent will require a Vehicle. some sort of lifting device and also someone else other than the costumer to help with the lifting because  a box of Honey is well beyond the max lifting capacity of one person in industry
Remember these respondents arnt likely to be tough resilient Beeks but more likely polytechnic trained softies  (at best)

The old saying that the pen is mightier than the sword is especially relevant here.

This AFB issue can only be dealt with at a Legislative level any attempt to mount some sort of Industry funded ground war could be considered a fraudulent rort

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I just think that for some hobbyists the whole hive destruction process could be very difficult and it might mean they put it to the back of their mind and wait for the inevitable to happen then store the empty boxes in the garage  

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Here's an example of how the Pen could go to work 
Every seller and purchaser of a Beehive and or Bees must be DECA registered
This puts the brakes on the continued expansion of the AFB problem in the urban environment  by increasing the skill level of hobby or would be Hobbyists as well as forcing would be Beeks to seriously considering the up front costs/ commitments of keeping Bees before entering the industry. (A filter if you like)

This creates a data base of beeks and will likely reduce the number of Beeks in the Urban areas.

 

If you wanted to wage war against rats for example,  you dont start in the Bush, you go to the city
 

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I don’t see how that could be policed. 

Yes it could work at the trademe level but there’s a lot of buying and selling happening on facebook and privately 

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44 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I don’t see how that could be policed. 

Yes it could work at the trademe level but there’s a lot of buying and selling happening on facebook and privately 

At parallel might be-

In the firearms community it is a legal requirement of a seller to view the licence of the purchaser, no licence no sale
In this case the the illegal transfer of a  firearm to an unlicensed party can result in prosecution and the revoking of the sellers firearms licence which will also include the confiscation of all fire arms in the sellers possession. 
Firearm ownership in NZ is a privilege that the vast majority of participants treasure and the loss of the privileged would be seen as a significant blow

not to mention the significant financial loss when firearms are confiscated.  

With Bees

Any possession of Bees will be accompanied by a DECA registration

Any advertised sale of Bees will be conected to a DECA registration
Any illegal possession of Bees will possibly be connected to a non compliant seller or another illegal possessor of Bees.

etc

Any illegal possession of Bees can result in the destruction of the Beehive and Bees
Draconian maybe but the problem is a very old and ongoing one

Edited by Philbee
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When I do a deka course I tell people quite plainly that it is not enough to teach them to recognise AFB with any certainty but it should be enough to teach them to recognise when something is wrong and ask for help. For me the simplest thing is for people to bring a well wrapped frame from the suspect hive and it only takes me a few minutes to work out what's going on. As for blaming hobbyists for the AFB problems I have seen both competence and gross incompetence right throughout the beekeeping world from one hive to thousands and I have known several very experienced commercial beekeepers who were without a doubt grossly incompetent. If I had to make an educated guess at where most of the AFB problem has come from in the last 50 years I think I would pick semicommercial beekeepers. Once again there are some highly skilled and motivated beekeepers in this group but there also tend to be a lot of people with more hives than they have time for and inflated opinions of their own knowledge and skills. Under and nonreporting of AFB from sectors of the corporate beekeeping world is also happening even to the point of deliberately leaving infected hives behind to help clean out the opposition. I can't prove that last statement but I have talked to enough credible witnesses to believe that in at least one case it is true.
Increased costs and penalties lead to under reporting and non-registration.
Wet bus tickets also lead to underreporting and nonregistration.
Perhaps it's time to heat up the end of that pointed stick and apply it where it will do the most good.

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should it be like the TB system. 

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1 minute ago, john berry said:

When I do a deka course I tell people quite plainly that it is not enough to teach them to recognise AFB with any certainty but it should be enough to teach them to recognise when something is wrong and ask for help. For me the simplest thing is for people to bring a well wrapped frame from the suspect hive and it only takes me a few minutes to work out what's going on. As for blaming hobbyists for the AFB problems I have seen both competence and gross incompetence right throughout the beekeeping world from one hive to thousands and I have known several very experienced commercial beekeepers who were without a doubt grossly incompetent. If I had to make an educated guess at where most of the AFB problem has come from in the last 50 years I think I would pick semicommercial beekeepers. Once again there are some highly skilled and motivated beekeepers in this group but there also tend to be a lot of people with more hives than they have time for and inflated opinions of their own knowledge and skills. Under and nonreporting of AFB from sectors of the corporate beekeeping world is also happening even to the point of deliberately leaving infected hives behind to help clean out the opposition. I can't prove that last statement but I have talked to enough credible witnesses to believe that in at least one case it is true.
Increased costs and penalties lead to under reporting and non-registration.
Wet bus tickets also lead to underreporting and nonregistration.
Perhaps it's time to heat up the end of that pointed stick and apply it where it will do the most good.

John you live in Hawke Bay
Have you considered the sheer size of the white hot zone on Auck for example 
There are thousands of small sites and you have no hope of helping each beek at a one to one level.
You would be totally overwhelmed 

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1 minute ago, nab said:

should it be like the TB system. 

How about setting the details out here.

 

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https://www.tbfree.org.nz/movement-control.aspx

 

if people were serious about getting rid of afb than stopping large amounts of hives being ship all over the country might help stop some of the spread.  once you can contain t it you can start to control it.  look how they delt with Ebola.  control movement then eradicate  

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40 minutes ago, nab said:

https://www.tbfree.org.nz/movement-control.aspx

 

if people were serious about getting rid of afb than stopping large amounts of hives being ship all over the country might help stop some of the spread.  once you can contain t it you can start to control it.  look how they delt with Ebola.  control movement then eradicate  

Kind of like taking the wheels off a Taxi 
Its no longer an earner 
Possibly mobile/ seasonal Hives need special considerations and controls 

Remember that Pollination hives would be in the same category as "shipped"hives

Edited by Philbee

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thats right.

AFB will always be part of beekeeping in new Zealand.  

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