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Andywang

Organic beekeepers required

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That's what I was trying to say we use non synthetic treatments in no way no how can we call our honey organic I do know someone that can they have hives in the sounds no 1080 and only bush for miles I think they should market it as such 

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How do you do it Glynn, what's your treatment regime? (Don't have to give any secrets LOL)

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Formic and oxalic acids are called 'organic acids' in the original chemistry definition of the word - they are chemical compounds which include carbon molecules, and by that definition, the active ingredients in Apivar, Apistan and Bayverol are equally correctly termed organic. The 'organic' game is purely marketing spin.  

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3 hours ago, glynn said:

That's what I was trying to say we use non synthetic treatments in no way no how can we call our honey organic I do know someone that can they have hives in the sounds no 1080 and only bush for miles I think they should market it as such 

Its all realative
Are the sounds free of jet fuel carbon emissions and particles of radioactive waste from historic Bomb tests and Reactor melt downs? 

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Hi all, 

 

Thank you so much for all your valuable inputs, never thought I would get so much replies in a few days.

Yes I actually meant, bee keepers with their honey certified as organic, never meant to say the bee keepers are organic. LOL

 

I also did a bit of research myself on Google and found there is a company "https://www.asurequality.com/" which can certified  whether the product is organic. Has anyone come across this company?

 

It just seems so hard to find a bee keepers who do their honey organicly and would do bulk production and retail packaging for you.

 

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1 minute ago, Andywang said:

I also did a bit of research myself on Google and found there is a company "https://www.asurequality.com/" which can certified  whether the product is organic. Has anyone come across this company?

Are you taking the Mickey or asking a serious question here.

Every (legal) beekeeper in New Zealand knows exactly who they are.  

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1 hour ago, Andywang said:

 

 

It just seems so hard to find a bee keepers who do their honey organicly and would do bulk production and retail packaging for you.

 

thats probably because they all sell their own direct to market and not to middle men.

there is only a hand full of organic beekeeping companies in NZ and none of them are big.

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7 hours ago, Sailabee said:

Apivar, Apistan and Bayverol

Ah yes, but how about listing the relative toxic doses in humans for each of the substances compared to that of Oxalic or Thymol 
 

Edited by Philbee

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3 hours ago, Andywang said:

Yes I actually meant, bee keepers with their honey certified as organic, never meant to say the bee keepers are organic. LOL

 

There are very few certified organic beekeepers in NZ, because it is difficult, time consuming, and expensive. However I did some research and found this guy, who appears to be the real deal, and has a processing plant in Auckland

http://www.sanctuaryhoney.co.nz/

 

And yes, Asurequality are involved in certifying beekeepers and may be able to supply you a list of them.

Edited by Alastair

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I suspected that Phil was the implying that synthetics are safer, I had no idea so I looked. Think I got all oral doses.

Oxalic 71 mg/kg human (375mg/kg rats)

formic 729 mg/kg mice

bayarol 5000mg/kg rat

apistan 1402mg/kg (species not stated)

apivar I can’t find.

Edited by cBank
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Is that an LD50? If so, it would imply the synthetics are far and away safer than either oxalic or formic.

 

However organic is not necessarily about safety, in fact it can be argued that some organic crops carry more risk than treated ones. Organic is to some extent just a happy buzzword primarily useful for marketing..

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3 hours ago, Alastair said:

 

There are very few certified organic beekeepers in NZ, because it is difficult, time consuming, and expensive. However I did some research and found this guy, who appears to be the real deal, and has a processing plant in Auckland

http://www.sanctuaryhoney.co.nz/

 

And yes, Asurequality are involved in certifying beekeepers and may be able to supply you a list of them.

 

thanks a bunch!! Yes I should of thought about contacting Asurequality for the list if that's possible!!!

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The other difference @Philbee between the commercial strips and formic and oxalic is that the strips are designed for those who lack the education to safely handle very reactive chemicals, so are a far safer option. 

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9 hours ago, Alastair said:

Is that an LD50?

 

Yes.

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@BJC I had a google of where you live as it’s not a place I’ve heard of before....what a beaut spot :)

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13 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

@BJC I had a google of where you live as it’s not a place I’ve heard of before....what a beaut spot :)

Thank you, we like it.   Reasonably remote here but indeed a great spot, we live in the old homestead that has a bit of history to it.

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12 hours ago, cBank said:

I suspected that Phil was the implying that synthetics are safer, I had no idea so I looked. Think I got all oral doses.

Oxalic 71 mg/kg human (375mg/kg rats)

formic 729 mg/kg mice

bayarol 5000mg/kg rat

apistan 1402mg/kg (species not stated)

apivar I can’t find.

The 71mg/kg LD50 for Humans needs to be verified as various sources give differing information
E.G. it is reported that 15-30g OA is a leathal dose for a 58kg woman which is over 300mg/kg @ 20g dose
Also
LD50 is just one consideration

Another is the effects on the bees themselves by the Synthetics
and also the time taken for various chemicals/compounds to break down
 

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15 hours ago, Andywang said:

 

I also did a bit of research myself on Google and found there is a company "https://www.asurequality.com/" which can certified  whether the product is organic. Has anyone come across this company?

 

It just seems so hard to find a bee keepers who do their honey organicly and would do bulk production and retail packaging for you.

 

Assurequality is the same company that registers beehives and apiaries. They also have the second best organic certification scheme in NZ. BioGrow is number 1.

I don't think it is possible to do organic honey on a commercial scale, because of the synthetics all over the place. It is usually small scale beekeepers that provide organic honey to their local markets, and sometimes into specialty shops. Their hives are usually well away from farming, and things like 1080 drops. I would challenge large companies, even the likes of Comvita, producing organic honey. They would have to have bloody good audit trails, extracting and bottling processes to keep organic and conventional honeys separate.

Organic certification concentrates on eliminating the use of synthetic chemicals, and finding more natural ways of dealing with diseases and pests. Once that is achieved, and can be maintained, then certification is granted, and you can use the certification mark on packaging. If a product uses the word 'organic' on the label, but there is no cert mark, then it is not organically produced.

The previous comment about organic production being just marketing spin is not true at all (that is a common excuse for people who have no issue dowsing food crops with chemicals, and using chemicals around crops.) Yes, there are organic compounds in chemistry, and organic food production. Everyone knows the difference, and both are 100% valid.

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36 minutes ago, BlakeyJ said:

The previous comment about organic production being just marketing spin is not true at all (that is a common excuse for people who have no issue dowsing food crops with chemicals, and using chemicals around crops.)

Where I think the spin comes in is not with the production, it's the unproven benefit of the consumption of organic produce that is spun . A blind taste test  of eg carrot or sweet corn will easily differentiate between your average supermarket product and  ones straight out of the ground somewhere, but would such a trial distinguish 

"organic" from "non organic " ?  Can a cabbage distinguish "natural" say nitrogen from any other nitrogen ? I don't think so. This is not to say I don't wholeheartedly support organic methods of utilising the land , because any other regime is stuffing the planet.

Sorry about the topic admin..

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Like @yesbut, I think we are all using less toxic chemicals in all areas of life, but to suggest that the actual manufacture of the 99.9% oxalic acid, or 80% formic acid is in any way cleaner and greener than synthetic strips does not wash with me.

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6 minutes ago, yesbut said:

Where I think the spin comes in is not with the production, it's the unproven benefit of the consumption of organic produce that is spun . A blind taste test  of eg carrot or sweet corn will easily differentiate between your average supermarket product and  ones straight out of the ground somewhere, but would such a trial distinguish 

"organic" from "non organic " ?  Can a cabbage distinguish "natural" say nitrogen from any other nitrogen ? I don't think so. This is not to say I don't wholeheartedly support organic methods of utilising the land , because any other regime is stuffing the planet.

Sorry about the topic admin..

We can include the original topic of organic honey to elaborate on this. I have been in the organic industry for about 15 years, and there are 2 reasons why I would buy organic honey (or any organically produced food item).

1. Organic production is utilising what exists naturally, without further polluting the environment, and also using environments that are not polluted. There is significant sense in doing that. We all know that synthetics are used prolifically as a means to keep production cheap and easy. The only way to grow naturally nutitcious food, is by using proper, natural compost/fertaliser and making sure the soil is at its peak, full of worms and bacteria. Throwing NPK on every year, and planting the same crop cannot ever produce a properly nutritional food. Sorry, but it just can't. With honey production, or pollinating services, the real sufferers are the bees, who are feeding on chemical laden pollen and nectar. So for beekeepers to say they put their bees at the top of their priority list, then expose them to synthetic chemicals, is rather hypocritical. I am sure most will agree with that, even if they don't like it.

 

2. Your argument is on consumption is slightly the wrong tangent. The 'cabbage' doesn't 'know' the difference between natural nitrogen, or chemically extracted nitrogen, but the use of something that is not part of the natural cycle, certainly does impact the naturally produced nutrient makup of the food. I personally believe that whatever testing is done around this, is not always correct, in say vitamin A is found in both organic and conventional production, but the nutrient compound is different. I am not an expert in this, but I have seen it explained where, at a molecular level, the compounds are there, but are very slightly different - an oxygen molecule in the organic item, hanging off a different nitrogen molecule in the conventional item. Chemically they may be classed the same, but in the body, they are seen as different, and the body handles them differently. 
So while a test shows the nutrient, the reality is that the nutrient is different. When the body encounters something it is not used to, or designed to accept, it will always react in some way that is not normal. This is often very subtle, and may compound over time, setting up illness and disease that may take years to manifest. 

Organic food is not only about taste. Food has nutrition as its main purpose, taste is simply foods method of getting its nutrition into a person. Food with no nutrition (fast foods, instant noodles etc) is not food, it is an appetite supressors.

 

So organic honey simply follows the edicts of naturally as pure as possible without the use of synthetics, and in doing so, is far more nutritionally sound, in that the body is not having to deal with synthetics, which will always cause cellular stress... If you don't care about all that, then fine, but it is fully valid for any person to want to live like that, and eat like that, and no-one has the right to purposefully contaminate the environment to therefore pollute someone else's way of life.

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15 minutes ago, Sailabee said:

Like @yesbut, I think we are all using less toxic chemicals in all areas of life, but to suggest that the actual manufacture of the 99.9% oxalic acid, or 80% formic acid is in any way cleaner and greener than synthetic strips does not wash with me.

Oxalic acid has been extracted from wood and sugar since about 1745, originally in Holland. That means it is suitable to be used in organic food production. It is not a synthetically produced compound.

 

As for Formic acid - In nature, formic acid is found in most ants. The wood ants from the genus Formica can spray formic acid on their prey or to defend the nest. It is also found in the trichomes of stinging nettle (Urtica dioica). Formic acid is a naturally occurring component of the atmosphere due primarily to forest emissions.

Again, suitable for organic food production, unless it has been manufactured from synthetic compounds.

 

All mite strips use synthetic versions of chemicals, so are not suitable for organic honey production, meaning Oxylic acid and Formic Acid are both far cleaner and greener than all other treatments.

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Both the formic acid and oxalic acid used in varroa treatment is manufactured synthetically in Asia. Both of the sources for those commonly available in New Zealand come from China, and are the result of an industrial process that I would not like to be there to see.  

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