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are there any people whove tried to make stable lines of hybrid bees, ones that've persisted through the hybrid vigour and are gentle, productive and have qualities from both lines , i'm talking either stable crosses between a.m.l x a.m.c or a.m.l and a.m.m. Ive heard some people talk online about having a line of bees that they'd crossed with a.m.m to get white capped honey, are very conservative with stores, and cold resistant, i'm wondering if anybodies bothered trying to make lines of bees through crosses, and how successful those crosses have been.

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Posted (edited)

depends on what you call hybrid bees.

i would say most peoples bees are hybrid. its a fairly hard job to keep them pure.

crosses between carnie and Italian are much the norm.

if your talking AMM, i doubt many people even have them anymore. 

 

21 minutes ago, Emile Wilmar said:

Ive heard some people talk online about having a line of bees that they'd crossed with a.m.m to get white capped honey, are very conservative with stores, and cold resistant,

more than likely they are crossed with carnies rather than AMM.

Edited by tristan

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well thats what Brother Adam did, when he created the Buckfast.

with high hive densities, and no safe mating places (where no other Bees are allowed in a Radius of 10km or more), and also as the import of new genes is not allowed (for good reasons) it'll be close to impossible to achieve a similar result in NZ imho.

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On 6.01.2018 г. at 6:36 AM, Emile Wilmar said:

are there any people whove tried to make stable lines of hybrid bees, ones that've persisted through the hybrid vigour...

 Very interesting concept.


Heterosis (invented term, standing for stimulated heterozygosis) is correlated with the level of heterogeneity. The degree of stability (homozygosity) is calculated by the inbreeding coefficient. Both are opposite and self excluding things.

 

 

The only hybrid bees known to me are a result of the famous breeding program ran by Dadant for nearly half a century. Rest should be called (interracial/line) crosses (known parentage) or mongrels.


Is it possible to stabilize a cross? - YES! Most dog breeds and todays non hybrid plant cultivars are created by crossing different dog strains and plant varieties (most of which do not exist anymore). Do they possess hybrid vigour? – NO. 


As for Buckfast, just like any other strain of bee, it gives best results when outcrossed. It is nothing more than a set of qualities/additive polygenic traits, holding on their dominance in open matings. Rest is heterosis.


 

439.full.pdf

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I'd never heard of crossing dogs with plants. I hadn't imagined it possible.

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To answer OP question
Yes, No, No...No, Yes, No success

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I'm no genetetecist, but hybrid vigour is the combination of two or more traits from differing lines. So essentially all our bees are hybrid ...

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i've heard a very credible rumor that better bees is working on a italian x carni cross.

i have my doubts about how stable this will be, but as @Scutellator pointed out correctly in some other post, stability is not necessarily in the interest of the breeders.

the status quo with  "carni  versus  italian"  is actually good for business from a breeders point of view.

and a cross that turns useless at the f2 generation is good for business, too.

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5 hours ago, jamesc said:

I'm no genetetecist, but hybrid vigour is the combination of two or more traits from differing lines. So essentially all our bees are hybrid ...

Hybrid vigor in practical terms is when 2 true breeding lines, for example a Labrador dog and a Poodle dog are crossed.
The result can have hybrid vigor which is when the offspring is much more vigorous than either of the parents. 

The offspring maybe bigger, stronger, faster and or healthier etc than the parents.

These animals might have very high mating success or attractiveness but their offspring very rarely inherit the same level of success.

In plants the parallels manifest themselves in other ways but the principles are the same.

Ive always seen Hybrid Vigor as natures way of giving a species a bit of a kick start.

Imagine a small village of very well adapted  but closely related humans living on Stuart Island and another small village of very well adapted but closely related Humans living in Kiatia.

One day a teenager from each village meets on their OE in Rotorua and because there was little else to do they spend the day and night at a motel, the result is not a closely related child but rather a heck of an out cross.
This kid is a champion at everything and spreads his genes far and wide.
Now if the same vigor was 100% inheritable then before long the lands of the Bay of plenty would be bursting with super beings and that wouldn't be sustainable for the planet so God made it so the offspring of these Hybrids would be no better than the masses in the vast majority of cases.
In this way God has made it that populations do improve but only at a sustainable rate.
 

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Did the teenagers stay together or did he go on to Alaska and she became a solo mum living the hard life ?

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2 hours ago, jamesc said:

Did the teenagers stay together or did he go on to Alaska and she became a solo mum living the hard life ?

Irrelevant with regard to the Rotorua offspring but he may have gone off to Alaska and created more Hybrids with Vigor over there.
One of the key elements to genetic change has been "travel" which would seem obvious but the phenomena of Hybrid Vigor has added another dimension to the change.
 

Edited by Philbee
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2 hours ago, Philbee said:

Irrelevant with regard to the Rotorua offspring but he may have gone off to Alaska and created more Hybrids with Vigor over there.
One of the key elements to genetic change has been "travel" which would seem obvious but the phenomena of Hybrid Vigor has added another dimension to the change.
 

Ah good .... so as a gypsy beekeeper I am  very important to the survival of the species..... bees that is B|

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1 hour ago, jamesc said:

Ah good .... so as a gypsy beekeeper I am  very important to the survival of the species..... bees that is B|

Not necessarily, The likes of Fraz and The Carni man are the vital ones because they hold the true lines.

Simply spreading genetics willy nilly doesnt create a Hybrid vigor.

Besides, its questionable if reliance on  Hybrid Vigor is feasible.

Its probably much better to just try and create a semi stable line within your own operation

If that isnt feasible then focus on beating Varroa with the bees you have and you will be miles ahead 

Edited by Philbee

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Quite .... so this week we are starting to graft again from some of the survivors that have done well and pop those cells into a couple of hundred or so "tops" and see how they go through the winter.

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18 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Quite .... so this week we are starting to graft again from some of the survivors that have done well and pop those cells into a couple of hundred or so "tops" and see how they go through the winter.

I started grafting again on the 10th.

The swarm box method has had the most takes this time.

2 frames Honey nectar and Pollen with 20 cell cups

Cups primed in the closed but vented QLs nuc for 24hrs in cool killing shed and Shearers Quarters meat safe (well vented).
I will need to kick start some of the bigger hives I think with some 50/50.

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I also put some water into some of the empty honey frame cells

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

The likes of Fraz and The Carni man are the vital ones because they hold the true lines.

 

Because we don’t AI our “Italian” lines are not as pure as they used to be, I’m definitely seeing an increase in darker drones and there aren’t as many hives meeting our standards  for breeders As their used to be :( 

With David Yanke doing AI his carnie lines will be a lot more pure than our Italian.

 

Edited by frazzledfozzle
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Ive settled on a great system of tracking the Queens breeding

I use those adhesive white dots about 20mm diameter.

Each cell bar is recorded to a donor queen in a diary.

When that cell bar comes out of a finisher and to the incubator, each cell cup gets a white sticker on the top rim with the breeder number on it and a date that it must be placed in the hive eg 14/1 

Thats  from Queen 1 and must be placed on the 14th (10 day cell)

When each cell is placed in a nuc the sticker is peeled off (easy because they dint stick to cups well) and stuck to the mat

The lid of the nuc only gets the date that the cell was a 10 day cell, same as whats on the sticker but without the queen number.

So when I open a nuc and see a cracker nuc I know immediately what Queen it came from and just as importantly it lets me know which queen is the most prolific because in my operation it is the most prolific Queen that gets used the most, as a mater of convenience.

As it happens I quashed my best old girl today and took her last larvae
She was just really worn out looking  and there was a big fat laying Daughter in the box also. (Yellow, dark tips)

She was an Autumn Queen from last season and the record clearly show that in her short life she layed more eggs than any of the others, possibly as many as all the others combined.

The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long

Until that is some genetically superior Hybrid invented the LED 

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On 13.01.2018 г. at 6:16 AM, jamesc said:

...So essentially all our bees are hybrid ...

Yes, introgressed genes always exist, even in the pure race "Nazi" Carnica line breeding programs in Austria and Germany. But even they rely on heterosis for their production hives. Ask a professional sports athlete IF he/she takes substances prohibited by the Anti-Doping Agency. - NO!, right.

 

Is a Dingo dog a crossbred or a dog breed itself?

 

Edited by Scutellator

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5 hours ago, Scutellator said:

Is a Dingo dog a crossbred or a dog breed itself?

If you cross two Dingo's you get a Dingo so it is a dog breed

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I was informed that we have New Zealand bees. We have yellow NZ bees and we have brown NZ bees.

No new bees, queens or semen has come into the country in the last 10 years.

If you AI with brown drones to a brown queen you get carni bees?

If you AI with yellow bees to a yellow queen you get italian bees?

If they are open mated you get a mixture of anything that is flying around.

The genitics diversity of the NZ bees is very good, but we must remember that all our bees are NZ bees!

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49 minutes ago, Martin Garside said:

I was informed that we have New Zealand bees. We have yellow NZ bees and we have brown NZ bees.

No new bees, queens or semen has come into the country in the last 10 years.

If you AI with brown drones to a brown queen you get carni bees?

If you AI with yellow bees to a yellow queen you get italian bees?

If they are open mated you get a mixture of anything that is flying around.

The genitics diversity of the NZ bees is very good, but we must remember that all our bees are NZ bees!

I doubt we have a New Zealand bee yet
Bees haven't been here long enough

What we have are visitor Bees with no return ticket

One day, say in about 100 years there might be a NZ Honey Bee or it may be that that we never ever get a NZ Bee, just a NZ Beekeeper Bee thats being continuously juggled
The Dingo was mentioned earlier, thats an Australian native dog that breeds true

We dont have a native Dog just a whole lot of domestic pet dogs that are continuously juggled so that no one single  line will ever become a NZ dog

Bees here are the same as our dogs.


 

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As long as the Queens are good laying what dose it matter what colour they are, It would seem to me some are hang up on skin colour ... Pack of racists lol

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On 15.01.2018 г. at 7:04 AM, Martin Garside said:

....

The genitics diversity of the NZ bees is very good!...

The local mongrel mix in Europe has Caucasian, one or two (out of 60+) lines of Carnica, few strains of Ligustica, Cypria, Carpathica, Anatoliaca, Armenian, Primorsky, Sahariensis, Monticola/Elgon + some relic genetics of native bees in it. And you dare claiming good genetic diversity for the NZ bees, holding only three sub-species of bees as a proof? WoW

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15 hours ago, Scutellator said:

The local mongrel mix in Europe has Caucasian, one or two (out of 60+) lines of Carnica, few strains of Ligustica, Cypria, Carpathica, Anatoliaca, Armenian, Primorsky, Sahariensis, Monticola/Elgon + some relic genetics of native bees in it. And you dare claiming good genetic diversity for the NZ bees, holding only three sub-species of bees as a proof? WoW

we have had more than 3 sub-species imported in the early days.

despite the lack of imports since those days diversity is still good. may not be great but its certainly not bad. the testing was to check out if the diversity was bad, not if it was good or great. 

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