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flash4cash

What constitutes a strong hive

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So I have seen serval definition on here of what is a commercial hive going into the flow. I would like to know if terms of brood and bees.

 

I look at randy olivers work and it does not seem to stack up with what people claim here. I wonder if outliers are being quoted to the norm. I have no doubt that some hive can be monsters.

 

I turned down a sale recently because the buyer wanted 6-8 frames of capped brood per hive. So roughly 11-14 frames of brood including uncapped in a double hive.  If they are solid slabs I can not see how that is can be done.  Mine are not that strong even though they are boiling with bees and hang out the front on hot days. 

 

What am missing?

 

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5 hours ago, flash4cash said:

What am missing?

You need to distinguish between strong colony (yours sound like they are) and strongly laying queen.

 

I get slabs early on when the queen has loads of space and there are fewer forragers and nectar sources to upset her rhythm. Later on, especially after the excluder goes on,  it's lucky dip whether the slabs continue or not. 

 

With some effort I could probably create conditions to get slabs later in the season. But if the colony is allready 2-3 FD boxes boiling over and I'm not splitting then I simply don't need those bees. 

 

Does that help? 

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Yes it helps abit. To get a colony to peak in terms of egg laying it requires quite a bit of skill.  You need to have enough nectar/pollen but not to much or it will slow her down. Almost like controlled starvation they do in merino sheep to get the finest micron fibres.

 

For a queen to achieve 6-8 frames of solid brood her lay rate would have to be extremely high per day.  

 

Here is is the link http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-4/

 

fasinating reading

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To make the situation even more complex at least in my case and that of a new bee keeper I am growing the hive using undrawn frames.  So one needs to have enough flow/sugar for the bees to draw, but not to much so they plug existing drawn frames and thus slow the queen down. And then balance that with the weather :S and change in flow rates. 

 

Really understanding local condition is vital to great build up.  Something I have learned from @john berry though his posts over time.  Thanks john

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Some skinny, lanky fighters are extremely dangerous and some a powerful men are one punch knock downs.

Same with Bees

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

Some skinny, lanky fighters are extremely dangerous and some a powerful men are one punch knock downs.

Same with Bees

I wish I was smart enough to understand what you are try to say.  'Every hive is different'??  Or perhaph it is hard to judge the output of a hive by looks alone. 

 

On on a side note Mr Jones advice turned out sage.  Demand still there and prices same as last year. ?

 

 

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20 hours ago, flash4cash said:

So I have seen serval definition on here of what is a commercial hive going into the flow. I would like to know if terms of brood and bees.

 

I look at randy olivers work and it does not seem to stack up with what people claim here. I wonder if outliers are being quoted to the norm. I have no doubt that some hive can be monsters.

 

I turned down a sale recently because the buyer wanted 6-8 frames of capped brood per hive. So roughly 11-14 frames of brood including uncapped in a double hive.  If they are solid slabs I can not see how that is can be done.  Mine are not that strong even though they are boiling with bees and hang out the front on hot days. 

 

What am missing?

 

That was a pretty big ask and not very reasonable if it was 2x FD boxes. I would expect that in a double 3/4 hive set up though.

Frank Lindsay states on his website that a production hive ready for the flow should have 6 frames of brood and in total two boxes full of bees, I'm assuming FD there so that gives you a benchmark for a strong production hive.

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Just now, flash4cash said:

@M4tt did your daughter get here ? Sorted? 

To a point. They are non breeding pets now 

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36 minutes ago, flash4cash said:

Every hive is different

Every hive is different

Some flash 6 boxers will self destruct when the 4 boxer next door will not.

 

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Thanks @dansar mine have that.  He is a whale ?  in the game and I was not sure at the time.  To have 6 frames of solid cap brood is 42,000 cells over 11 days so laying 3,500 a day (assuming they all grow from egg onwards) the best I can find for a queen is 2,000 a day.  Even then the queen can not keep it up forever. 

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16 minutes ago, M4tt said:

To a point. They are non breeding pets now 

 

Hmm that is not sorted. There is only 1 answer.

 

I can hook her up with some top goats for nothing.  I spent $20k the other day to test 48 goats for genomics testing.  Not sure if I trust the test at this stage, be interesting to see if it matches what I think are superstar goats.  Hopefully it works and that will be my new path for the breeding program. 

Edited by flash4cash

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Read Frank Lindsay article

 

'Six frames of brood will produce about 25,000 bees'

 

so his allowed for the frames of cap brood to have honey and pollen along with undrawn cell.

 

25,000/42,000 = 60% brood per frame or 3 1/2 solid cap brood 

 

or a lay rate of 25,000/12= 2,000 a day

 

that sounds about right compared to randy writes

Edited by flash4cash

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@flash4cash it is almost impossible to achieve so many frames of brood with new/undrawn frames. So next spring use drawn frames from start and the queen will have plenty of cells ready in time.

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8 hours ago, flash4cash said:

 

Hmm that is not sorted. There is only 1 answer.

 

I can hook her up with some top goats for nothing.  I spent $20k the other day to test 48 goats for genomics testing.  Not sure if I trust the test at this stage, be interesting to see if it matches what I think are superstar goats.  Hopefully it works and that will be my new path for the breeding program. 

Her career path has changed . 

 

Genomics is not at all a good predictor in dairy cows and it certainly wasn’t any good earlier on . It’s reliability and ability to predict quality is low . There are just too many factors . Temperament and feet, for one , deteriorate from what I can see .

What you are selecting for in goats may be completely different 

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From strong hive discussion to genetics in goats?

hmm makes it really challenging to follow a thread.....

maybe rename them tangents?

 

 

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45 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Temperament and feet

Same in Horses

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One of the better examples of a thread going way off topic 

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1 hour ago, Beefriendly said:

From strong hive discussion to genetics in goats?

hmm makes it really challenging to follow a thread.....

maybe rename them tangents?

 

 

So sorry maybe we could pull it out an stick it into genomics on animals.  My fault. 

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I guess they would not need genomics on bees as the turn around for breeding to observation of outcome is so short.  

 

I not that that up to play on bee genetics, it does concern me that NZ could be narrowing our genetic pool by seeming very few breeders and open mating.  I can not see how we will not end up with everyone having the same and what problems that my cause. 

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4 hours ago, flash4cash said:

I not that that up to play on bee genetics, it does concern me that NZ could be narrowing our genetic pool by seeming very few breeders and open mating.  I can not see how we will not end up with everyone having the same and what problems that my cause. 

 

Read up on Peter Dearden's work in genetics in bees at Otago (?) university.  He's done quite a bit on genetic diversity including surveying the sex alleles present in NZ's bee population to address that exact question of whether we're heading for a bottleneck.    The outcome was basically that there was a ton more diversity than expected, to the point that we have (I'm going by memory here.. someone will be along any minute to correct me) darn near as many different alleles as were known to exist worldwide, and in fact new alleles were identified that have not been identified anywhere before. 

 

He commented that it appears that not only do we have diversity, but the bees are developing new alleles, ie 'evolving' at a rate previously unsuspected.

 

*pops neck on chopping block* tell my kids I love them..

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1 hour ago, deejaycee said:

someone will be along any minute

What she said. I was there and heard the same.

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2 hours ago, Rob Stockley said:

What she said. I was there and heard the same.

I was sitting next to Rob and heard the same, saw the same information displayed.

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9 hours ago, M4tt said:

One of the better examples of a thread going way off topic 

A thread is a  virtual conversation in cyberspace.

Conversation between real people normally meander off topic.

In most social situation the person that sticks  pedantically to the topic is the guy in the corner everyone avoids .

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12 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

A thread is a  virtual conversation in cyberspace.

Conversation between real people normally meander off topic.

In most social situation the person that sticks  pedantically to the topic is the guy in the corner everyone avoids .

 

It’s almost like they are 2 different things. ?

 

The path a moderator treads is a painful one and the style of the forum dictates the conversation. Some allow threads to be expanded and contracted such that multiple threads work (see reddit or hacker news). Other (this one!) have a different style that allows upload of images etc but threads in a thread doesn’t work all that well here. At least that’s my take.

I’m just glad it’s not up to me to moderate it all.

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