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Poor mans splits

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12 minutes ago, Shem said:

Sorry, can't see how poor man's splits are breeding (this sub-forum). Poor man's splits are what it says: do it and you end up a poor man. Over on this other thread:

https://www.nzbees.net/forums/topic/11479-buying-queens-vs-pauper-split/

there is this gift:

However, right here the opening poster zom-bee is a semi-commercial, and should be looking to improve his bees.

Yes, I've kind of had satisfactory results from  poor man's splits using hives well bred queens VSH & great honey gathering skills . However the odds are less than you would get from an  intelligent breeding programme.

If you are not going to breed, then at least buy say half the queens you need from a reputable breeder.

In your opinion, what exactly are the limitations of a paupers split?

Why is it called a paupers split and not for example an emergency split?

Would an emergency split produce inferior Queens and why?

Why should Zombee be looking to improve his Bees?

What is an improved Bee?

What unit of measurement should be used and is this proposed measurement on an annual basis likely to be even detectable.

 

 

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@Philbee if you had been beekeeping before varroa you would know how much all managed bees have improved since the die out of feral hives.

In a way the die out of ferals has lifted the all round quality of everyone’s bees.

 

I think it’s a bit weird that you don’t see any benefit from selecting and raising queens from your best stock rather than using a crap shoot method like pauper splits.

 

I could go on but I’m in a bad mood now after watching the kiwis play like rubbish and lose to Fiji. :(

 

Edited by frazzledfozzle
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35 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

@Philbee if you had been beekeeping before varroa you would know how much all managed bees have improved since the die out of feral hives.

In a way the die out of ferals has lifted the all round quality of everyone’s bees.

 

I think it’s a bit weird that you don’t see any benefit from selecting and raising queens from your best stock rather than using a crap shoot method like pauper splits.

 

 

they have certainly improved since pre-varroa days.

 

if your splitting only good hives you will see improvements. downside is its very slow.

 

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10 hours ago, tristan said:

they have certainly improved since pre-varroa days.

 

if your splitting only good hives you will see improvements. downside is its very slow.

 

I like to examine the underlying reasons for things.

For example, why have bees improved since the extinction of Feral Hives

Could it be that Varroa has indirectly lead to the removal of AMM Bees?

Note I use the word "removal".

There are many who will claim that a superior Bee has resulted through diligence on the part of breeders whereas I might claim that bees have improved due to the genocide of one true breeding strain and its replacement with another.

 

With regard to Paupers splits being inferior I stop and think, Hey just a minute, that system is well used in queen breeding yards.

I often produce great cells and Queens from emergency Starter/Finishers.

So whats the difference?

The difference is the Beeks management of what goes into each half of the split.

A paupers split with too many foragers too many  horizontal eggs, too few standing eggs and too few young bees is going to lead to a  disappointing result if it happens to be the the Queenless half.

 

 

 

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The difference is exactly as you say and to add the queens you are grafting from have been chosen specifically because they stand out from the rest because of the qualities they display.

if you are a hobbyist it doesn’t matter so much what your queen is like as long as she does the job. But for a commercial if pauper splits was all you did the quality of your hives over all would deteriorate because you aren’t selecting out the patchy layers the sacbrood and chalk brood the nasty hives the ones that don’t seem to do the honey the ones that never thrive the ones that need nursing etc etc.

everyone is free to do as they please and if a commercial wants to use walk away splits as their method of requeening or increasing then the very best of luck to them.

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54 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

But for a commercial if pauper splits was all you did the quality of your hives over all would deteriorate because you aren’t selecting out the patchy layers the sacbrood and chalk brood the nasty hives the ones that don’t seem to do the honey the ones that never thrive the ones that need nursing etc etc.

 

from experience (its only been the later years that we have bought queens) thats not true.

simple reason is your not splitting everything. your only splitting good hives.

the rub can be what you do with the poor hives. knocking them off helps.

as your getting rid of the bad and making replacements from the good, there is a steady improvement.

ours certainly never got worse.

however it is slow.

using cells you can get far quicker change. however the catch is if your selecting the queen to graft from, if you choose poorly and requeen everything, then everything ends up poor.

thats the issue with single line breeding.

 

wide breeding, ie letting them supersede naturally, has a lot more variability in it. that can be a bad or a good thing.

 

the problem with pauper splits is emergency queens don't always get fed well. poor feeding can mean she gets superseded quickly.

 

certainly varroa wiping out AMM has helped a lot. ours gradually got nicer to handle and performed better.

thats simply due to the drones they mate with are now from better stock than the wild bees.

it just takes a lot of generations for it to happen.

even when buying cells in, you still have that issue of what they mate with.

 

 

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On 11/12/2017 at 6:50 PM, Zom-bee said:

Hi, anybody had any reasnoble sucess with poor mans splits? the method im comtemplating is to divide a queenright double f/d broodboxes in half with the "queen and brood" being placed a few metres away from original location. The other half is to reamain in place with a frame or two of fresh eggs to raise emergency queens and utilise the field bees to compensate for the delay in replacement brood.  thanks

I have had good success with the so called Poor Man's Split system.

This system is used in my operation to requeen hives that I select as breeders early each season.

I will select a hive that I like early in Spring but only once there are Drones flying.

I take a 3 frame Nuc with the Queen and walk away.

The Nuc is re-boxed into a Grub Castle back at the breeding yard an left to grow.

The donor hive is left to raise a new Queen.

One of the most impressive looking mated Queens Ive seen this season is in one of these type of splits.

It is important to make a good job of the Queenless side of the split in order to give this Hive the best chance of raising a good Queen.

So the split needs lots of Food,  standing eggs, lots of young bees and enough Brood to maintain the population until the Queen starts laying but also enough Brood to allow for a second chance at requeening should the first attempt fail.

Edited by Philbee
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I'm not a big fan of the walk away split in Spring only using it when I must split for whatever reason and not having cells on hand.

 

It takes the bees a couple of weeks to create cells and for the Virgin to emerge.  The first Virgin to emerge was probably the oldest larvae selected.

On  the positive side during these two weeks the bees don't stop, they bring in and store nectar and pollen so not all is lost, but bee population declines.  

 

If the VQ successfully mates under either scenario the hive will be a month with-out a Queen and two weeks with a cell.  A lot of bees die in a month,

and even then the new crop of bees is twenty days away from emerging.  So in effect you have seven weeks with a declining population. It's

too long, five weeks is too, but that extra couple of weeks is damaging.  I want all my Queens laying hard out through Spring.  Cells are easy -

jam it between the bars - on a hive check pull it up to see if it emerged or not...beats looking through frames of bees for a self cell that has emerged or

looking for a Virgin.

 

And then what if there is a problem, the Virgin doesn't return etc?  and you have to try again with a cell or frame of eggs / brood?  The split is

nearing terminal status, laying workers are up next....

 

Using cells from selected breeder hives or a good cell supplier ensures consistency of Queens and consistency of management of the hives.  

Under walk away the Virgin could be an Italian / Carny cross or a Carny / Italian cross or any other type of hybrid.  Either way its temperament is likely

to be hot, that doesn't work for me with no gear on.  It will also behave differently to other hives - way more likely to swarm for example.  

 

So I think it is clear that cells are better, and the cost of $6 or $7 per cell, a pretty good investment I'd have thought.

Edited by CraBee
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cells are good and preferred. it shortens the time before laying thats for sure.

but many smaller co's and hobbyist do not have easy access to cells and they need carry case plus getting the timing right.

paupers you can do anytime.

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In the early days of our beekeeping we used a queenless Nuc to carry our cells around on the truck, no need for any fancy carriers.

When we go out we always have queens or cells or both I can’t imagine beekeeping without having those on tap.

Edited by frazzledfozzle
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6 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

But for a commercial if pauper splits was all you did the quality of your hives over all would deteriorate because you aren’t selecting out the patchy layers the sacbrood and chalk brood the nasty hives the ones that don’t seem to do the honey the ones that never thrive the ones that need nursing etc etc.

everyone is free to do as they please and if a commercial wants to use walk away splits as their method of requeening or increasing then the very best of luck to them.

Just don't  have the commercial with his pauper splits setting up his apiary next to me. I don't want his varroa; his VSHless drones mating with my queens; etc....   Got lost of 2/3 of the commercial boundary loaders and  hive health has picked up amazingly..

Understand the principles behind the practicalities of breeding. If you can't do the grafting because you have a serious disability such as brain injury; cerebral palsy; motor neurone disease; or blindness, then use the Jenter method or lay a frame of standing eggs from the donor hive on its side above the brood cluster.

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6 hours ago, CraBee said:

two weeks with a cell.

Apples with apples

A spring Cell will take 3 weeks  a summer cell 2 weeks

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3 hours ago, Shem said:

Just don't  have the commercial with his pauper splits setting up his apiary next to me. I don't want his varroa; his VSHless drones mating with my queens; etc....   Got lost of 2/3 of the commercial boundary loaders and  hive health has picked up amazingly..

Understand the principles behind the practicalities of breeding. If you can't do the grafting because you have a serious disability such as brain injury; cerebral palsy; motor neurone disease; or blindness, then use the Jenter method or lay a frame of standing eggs from the donor hive on its side above the brood cluster.

I have never heard of that being done before.

Does it work well .? 

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3 hours ago, Shem said:

I don't want his varroa; his VSHless drones mating with my queens

Your Queens may see you as a little over protective

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Done the splits today - lots of preparation(took ages to set up few new pallets and today I moved two more wooden pallets on the roof of the car - used a blanket so all good and the car goes to the wrecker anyway).

Grafted QCs are ready next week. Where I will see EQCs I will not add a grafted QC(I do not have enough of them yet).

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C.C Millar used a form of walk away split  for hive increases.

I did it a few years back and turned 7 hives in to 50 colonies. This week I will be starting again and will use 5 hive to make a total of 70 plus colonies through to the end of February. If the summer decides to be half decent I will get honey from some of these new colonies as well. The 5 hives used to start the process are always strong and never depleted so much that they can’t make a honey crop. 

 

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8 hours ago, dansar said:

C.C Millar used a form of walk away split  for hive increases.

I did it a few years back and turned 7 hives in to 50 colonies. This week I will be starting again and will use 5 hive to make a total of 70 plus colonies through to the end of February. If the summer decides to be half decent I will get honey from some of these new colonies as well. The 5 hives used to start the process are always strong and never depleted so much that they can’t make a honey crop. 

 

Do you make all the boxes etc and sell them with the bees in them ?

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4 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

Do you make all the boxes etc and sell them with the bees in them ?

Yes, or for my own expansion/replacements.

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8 minutes ago, dansar said:

Yes, or for my own expansion/replacements.

I thought you must sell them otherwise that's a really bad case of hive creep.:6_smile:

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1 minute ago, kaihoka said:

I thought you must sell them otherwise that's a really bad case of hive creep.:6_smile:

Aspirations of grandeur.?

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On 11/19/2017 at 3:45 PM, frazzledfozzle said:

When we go out we always have queens or cells or both I can’t imagine beekeeping without having those on tap.

If they're not required do they go out the ute window, or do you manage to use them ? ( I'm just curious, I don't want any )

Edited by yesbut

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Queens will keep for a number of days cells will usually have a few days to use then bin them if we don’t need them 

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On 11/19/2017 at 11:29 PM, dansar said:

C.C Millar used a form of walk away split  for hive increases.

I did it a few years back and turned 7 hives in to 50 colonies. This week I will be starting again and will use 5 hive to make a total of 70 plus colonies through to the end of February. If the summer decides to be half decent I will get honey from some of these new colonies as well. The 5 hives used to start the process are always strong and never depleted so much that they can’t make a honey crop. 

 

 

How does it work @dansar?

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The lack of success with  pauper splits is foregoing the revenue stream of 5 to 6 weeks without new brood. Even if you were to buy mated production queens, that's only 1 to 3 frames of honey (a few days production in a honey flow) for each queen;  an artificially inseminated breeder queen would cost the equivalent of 1 or 2 supers of manuka.  Up until the beginning of this week Northland has had overcast drizzly windy weather. Now that the weather is more or less settled and fine, doing pauper splits may mean saying goodbye to the bulk of this seasons income: and that's not  a good commercial decision, not even a semi-commercial one.

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