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Mixing apivar and bayvarol strips


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Hey guys, I’ve got two hives and both have apivar strips in them until 28th of October. My question is if it’s a good idea to do an alcohol wash after treatment strips are removed to check mite levels? And if I’m not happy can I put in bayvarol strips for a number of weeks until beginning of December? Is it ok to run one strip of apivar and one strip bayvarol in a hive for spring treatment? 

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Would you feel protected if your partner was taking a half dose of the birth control pill and you had half a vasectomy?

Yes.   I don't bother testing. The bees either do what I want them too in the the end or they don't.   You're maths isnt wrong but your understanding is.  Say you have a sl

Yeah but what would  you know, you are arrogant and full of " expounded " errors or errors that aren't expounded or something. Oh  and a man with plenty of time on your hands so obviously don't work v

Jason your apivar strips are coming out 28th October but when did you put them in? Thing is, if you are taking them out after 6 weeks there still could be a few mites, they are better left in longer, rather than put a different type of treatment in.

 

We are supposed to alternate treatment types. If we put a strip of bayvarol and a strip of apivar in the hive at the same time, how do we get to alternate treatment types. In my view, best to use one treatment type at a time.

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17 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Im not sure where the info is coming from but the belief that 2 strips per box is the required dose is widespread 

 

If you are referring to bayvarol, this belief came from people who tried it and got away with it.

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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

If we put a strip of bayvarol and a strip of apivar in the hive at the same time, how do we get to alternate treatment types

I think the theory is that two different treatments  at the same time is statistically the same as alternating by season

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24 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Jason your apivar strips are coming out 28th October but when did you put them in? Thing is, if you are taking them out after 6 weeks there still could be a few mites, they are better left in longer, rather than put a different type of treatment in.

The strips will have been in the hive for 10 weeks, at the 28th October

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9 minutes ago, Trevor Gillbanks said:

The strips will have been in the hive for 10 weeks, at the 28th October

 

Well as long as they were placed correctly I suspect he will be happy with the results of his wash and not feel the need to immediately place some other treatment.

 

8 minutes ago, Jamo said:

Would you feel protected if your partner was taking a half dose of the birth control pill and you had half a vasectomy?

 

Ha! Wasn't quite sure wether to endorse that analogy, but certainly a valid point is made! Not enough of either is less likely to achieve the desired result.

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9 hours ago, Philbee said:

I think the theory is that two different treatments  at the same time is statistically the same as alternating by season

i don't know.

i think there is the risk of getting resistant to both at the same time.

however there is the possibility that the two treatments could help each other. eg bayvarol knocking down mites quickly as apivar is a bit slow. also apivar weakening mites allowing bayvarol to be more effective.

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@JasonK

As a beginning beek IMHO it's best practice to follow the treatment instructions and the advice given by experienced beeks

there is s wealth of knowledge freely given on the forum

 

treat, use correctly ( reposition on the brood) during the treatment period.

Check the treatments working 

alternate treatments

find a mentor  :IMG_0386:

 

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23 minutes ago, tristan said:

i don't know.

i think there is the risk of getting resistant to both at the same time.

however there is the possibility that the two treatments could help each other. eg bayvarol knocking down mites quickly as apivar is a bit slow. also apivar weakening mites allowing bayvarol to be more effective.

This is not a topic I would advocate or debate

The view I expressed is based on the concept that resistance is purely a numbers game of probabilities.

By exposing the Mites to two chemicals at once, all things being equal, the probability of a resistant Mite emerging from a population is halved.

This is exactly the same probability as exists over one season using two separate and different treatments (alternated treatment)

All thing being equal the maths is the same.

Someone shoot me down please

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53 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Someone shoot me down please

 

Could Jamo's post have already done that?

 

You use a 1/2 dose of each and get 1/2 a result as per Jamo, or you spend twice as much money and give a full dose of 2 treatments at the same time. For what useful purpose I don't know, because there will still be a few mites at the end of the treatment period.

 

The numbers game thing is wrong also. Because with normal rotation of say, 2 chemicals, the mites are exposed to each one 1 time per 12 months. Doing both together the mites are exposed to each one every 6 months, a worse scenario.

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51 minutes ago, Alastair said:

You use a 1/2 dose of each and get 1/2 a result

2 x 1/2 = 1 

Its the overall dose and its application that is important for a good kill.

The makeup of the dose isnt an issue as far as the "kill" is concerned.

 

Also,

It is a numbers game.

In very crude terms

If you have two million Mites and one in that population has a resistance to chemical "A" and one in the population has a resistance to chemical  "B"

The odds of a Mite being born with a resistance to both is 1 in  (2 Million x 2 Million).

No matter what form of balanced rotation you employ for a given season, the numbers are the same.

It is not an individual mite's exposure to a Chemical that creates resistance, its random mutations within a breeding population.

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2 minutes ago, Philbee said:

The makeup of the dose isnt an issue as far as the "kill" is concerned..

 

A bold statement that my training in pest control taught me is incorrect.

 

It's cos different chemicals work in different ways and affect different things. If we were mixing say, an IGR with an organophsphate we had to put in a full dose of each. This is standard. There is no reason for this rule to apply to all pests except varroa mites. If you want to multiply 1/2 by 2 and get 1, the two 1/2's would have to be the same thing. Read Jamo's post again.

 

All the same, there will probably be a few people who would prefer to do a 1/2 dose of 2 different chemicals instead of a full dose of 1. That's the contrarian mentality of human nature. I can't do anything about that but just hope their bees are not close to my bees.

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Also, the less often a pest is exposed to a chemical the better. Because even if resistance does occur, there is a longer time frame for that resistance to be bred out again or swamped by other genetics. So how is exposing the pests to a chemical every 6 months better than only exposing them to it every 12 months? 

 

I ask again because you forgot to answer that.

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4 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

A bold statement that my training in pest control taught me is incorrect.

 

It's cos different chemicals work in different ways and affect different things. If we were mixing say, an IGR with an organophsphate we had to put in a full dose of each. This is standard. There is no reason for this rule to apply to all pests except varroa mites. If you want to multiply 1/2 by 2 and get 1, the two 1/2's would have to be the same thing. Read Jamo's post again.

 

All the same, there will probably be a few people who would prefer to do a 1/2 dose of 2 different chemicals instead of a full dose of 1. That's the contrarian mentality of human nature. I can't do anything about that but just hope their bees are not close to my bees.

I did say that I didnt want to debate this.

The only time Ive done it is with a Thymol / OA treatment

It killed the Mites and the Hive wintered well

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12 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Mathematically its the same

 

This isn't maths it's biology, which is why you are confused. If you are going to debate this, you should explain how it is better to expose a pest to the same chemical every 6 months, than it is to expose it to that chemical only every 12 months. Not just say "mathematically it's the same". It isn't the same, nor is there any reason or explanation to your answer.

 

Do you think exposing a pest to a chemical every 50 years would be just as likely to produce a resistant organism as exposing it every 6 months? It would be "mathematically the same" ? No of course not, cos it's a longer time frame and less exposures. 

 

In the same way, exposures at 12 months is not "mathematically the same" as exposures at 6 months.

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21 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

This isn't maths it's biology, which is why you are confused. If you are going to debate this, you should explain how it is better to expose a pest to the same chemical every 6 months, than it is to expose it to that chemical only every 12 months. Not just say "mathematically it's the same". It isn't the same, nor is there any reason or explanation to your answer.

Within the confines of one season it makes no theoretical difference whether you use one chemical for the first half of the season and another chemical for the second half or dual chemicals

In practice though, if a dual chemical was used for the first half of the season  there is a much lower chance of a mite that resistant to either chemical surviving long enough to breed.

If a mite that is resistant to one chemical gets the chance to breed between treatments it is more likely to spread its genetics beyond its original hive.

This is basic but again Im not advocating one way or the other.

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6 minutes ago, yesbut said:

I'm having trouble understanding this resistance thing. If it develops as a result of random mutation, rather than as a result of exposure, how is exposure relevant ?

 

Exposure  = Breeding cycles, which equal throws of the dice.

If you throw a dice or dices often enough you will eventually get whatever combination of numbers you want or seek.

 

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