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john berry

Beautiful weather, bad day.

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1 hour ago, Trevor Gillbanks said:

Not sure where this has come from.  MAQS+ will not be available until End Oct or November.

@Lucy Tasker may have some more information.

 

MAQS+ will be available early November, all going well. The product is currently being used in International markets, but there have been no New Zealand trials as far as I'm aware. The formulation is only very slightly altered to extend the lifespan of the product, so there should be very little difference when using MAQS+

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1 hour ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

We used 2 strips until about 4-5 years ago for the same reason as @john berry

about 4-5 years ago we came into spring with a lot of varroa and bees with DWV that was the last winter we used 2 strips and we haven't had a problem since.

 

That would be it in a nutshell. Bayer recommend 4 strips because they think you need 4 strips.

 

2 days ago I had a look at the first hives I put bayvarol in this season, at 4 strips a box. Cracked open drone brood and couldn't find a mite. In fact I went home feeling pretty relaxed.

 

Question James, the failed bayvarol treatment you did, was that only 2 strips a box?

 

Edited by Alastair

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The problem is that doing what we have always done in respect to varroa treatments cant continue. Do many beeks monitor mite numbers before and after treatments.

I didn't, put it in the two hard/just another job to do basket, until after listening to Randy Oliver and hearing how many surprises they got when they did every hive from when they were just doing a small number of hives.Have only started it myself and not as hard/time consuming as you think.

I see beeks using bavarol and or apivar and have no problems and others that have major problems, now unless we all using different batches and there is no quality control then perhaps it is the strips (which I don't think so), or beeks haven't looked closely enough at their mite loads and are treating to late, or there's heaps of reinvasion from other beeks hives and or swarms.

I'm not sure which it is but I still see more beeks that have no problems with strips than those that do.

Edited by Dennis Crowley

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Is the goose  cooked  yet ?

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11 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

That would be it in a nutshell. Bayer recommend 4 strips because they think you need 4 strips.

 

2 days ago I had a look at the first hives I put bayvarol in this season, at 4 strips a box. Cracked open drone brood and couldn't find a mite. In fact I went home feeling pretty relaxed.

 

Question James, the failed bayvarol treatment you did, was that only 2 strips a box?

 

I'm as guilty as sin Alistair .... we used two strips Bayvarol/brood box in the autumn .... which is what we have always done and it's always worked - until this year. This spring we are using Apivar as per the recommendations - two strips per brood box, which is why i was surprised to see some mites running around yesterday. Maybe just a rogue hive.

Any way, spose I better go and don waterproofs and go and feed bees. Today we have a convoy of two trucks in case we have to play pushmepullyou !:|

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Thanks James, it's good to have that info re the bayvarol.

 

Re the apivar, it's slow, my own findings even years ago is that 3 weeks into treatment there will still be mites in drone brood, and even longer into treatment than that. It does seem to get the job done in the end though but me, I'll leave it in 8 weeks.

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Could be a good time to pose the question, is there anyone out there who has had bayvarol fail, who has used it as per label?

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4 minutes ago, Alastair said:

I'll leave it in 8 weeks.

10 ?

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11 hours ago, Bayer said:

 We can even take varroa samples and have them genetically tested for resistance.  To date none has been found. 

This is a pretty hot topic and I am sure we'd all appreciate a more expansive account here. I assume the statement applies to New Zealand. None has been found, but how often do you look? Information of that sort is extremely useful. As demonstrated in this thread, the general understanding of resistance is pretty poor. 

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Yesterday the weather was perfect here and the bees were out and about.

Going through hives it was surprising how much nectar they have brought in given the patchy weather.

I was putting 50/50 on hives that didnt really need stimulating or feeding.

Also made sure that hives had at least 3 strips of OA /GL

I Alcohol washed a few and was quickly reminded of the feeling of frustration and waste when killing Bees for no Mites in the tests.

I refuse to do any more spring Alcohol washes, preferring to go back to Sugar.

Also its too easy to miss a Cross Bred Queen and kill her in an Alc wash when she will survive a Sugar shake.

 

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16 minutes ago, yesbut said:

10 ?

 

Good call Yesbut, I should have said 8 weeks minimum.

Edited by Alastair

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Using half the label recommendation would be a similar effect to leaving strips in all year . . . you'd be driving or promoting resistance by providing a lower level of the pyrethroid.

 

We have developed a new DNA test to detect the multiple DNA changes (interestingly, all in the same place in the varroa gene responsible) but have not detected the mutations, as per George @Bayer comment. Some of these varroa have been sent to us as being resistant. It is possible that there may be another mutation but this is a research project to go hunting for it.

As the described mutations for pyrethroid resistance are all in the same place (ie region is a 'hotspot' for mutations) then this is the most likely place that a resistance mutation would show - but yes, possibly elsewhere

 

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2 hours ago, Dave Black said:

This is a pretty hot topic and I am sure we'd all appreciate a more expansive account here. I assume the statement applies to New Zealand. None has been found, but how often do you look? Information of that sort is extremely useful. As demonstrated in this thread, the general understanding of resistance is pretty poor. 

Yes, the statement applies to NZ.  @JohnF has provided a good summary above.

We are proactive in this area.  We have just completed a study of NZ varroa with samples taken from a significant number of different hives and across a wide geographic area, to see if there is any sign of the known genetic mutations in the DNA.  We don't have the results yet, but I will share them here when we have them.  We are working to set up on-going monitoring, and we are especially interested in getting samples of mites from hives where there is a claimed lack of effectiveness of treatment.  

All of this is relative to Bayvarol.  You would need to ask the suppliers of other products what they know, and what they are doing in this area in relation to their own products.

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Question for you Bayer. There are anecdotal reports of resistance to Apistan in some areas in NZ, yet at least some of these people claim Bayvarol still works for them.

 

As both products are an SP, what are your thoughts on how this could be? 

 

Or, maybe JohnF could comment on the actual status of Apistan resistance in NZ?

Edited by Alastair
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quick side question. my apivar arrived.

there is a letter in the box stating to take treatments out after 6 weeks. why do they still state that if that's not working? i thought it was "beeswax" promoting the 10 week treatment?

also the strips are manufactured beginning of december, over 9 month old. they used to have an expire period of 6 month i think to remember. i see the expiry date is 2 years now.

did they change the chemical or only the expiry date?

i find it strange that one company (bayer/ecroid) claims to run out of stock over night if supply from manufacturer  is cut off though that treatment has a very long expiry time while the beeswax is selling ancient stock with a much shorter expiry date.

or is this all a matter of being a neglect-able small commercial?

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, tom sayn said:

there is a letter in the box stating to take treatments out after 6 weeks. why do they still state that if that's not working? i thought it was "beeswax" promoting the 10 week treatment?

I believe it's all about the original NZ approval of 6 weeks and the need for big paperwork (which isn't being done) to change that to the proper 10 weeks

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To me, this whole topic shows how we have to be patient with (new or old) beekeepers that want to try alternative ways i.e. treatment free or organic treatments, different hive configurations, etc. There doesn't seem to be a silver bullet with varroa, and, sooner or later, if not vigilant, our bees will suffer.

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Tom I can't answer for the manufacturers of Apivar but when it first came out I found it didn't get every last mite in the 6 week period so left it in longer and get a better result.

 

I have said that before, and there has been a counter argument that I'm wrong because by 6 weeks most of the active ingredient is gone out of the strip so I'm wasting my time. So the distributors here NZ Beeswax, emailed the manufacturers in France, and then came back with the answer that in 6 weeks the strips still have around 1/2 the active ingedient.

 

Anyhow I'm no scientist and cannot present an argument on that basis, just saying what I found works, for me.

 

As to the 2 year thing, when Apivar first came out with the one year expiry date, the issue was that if people were only using Apivar once a year because they were alternating treatment types, any surplus Apivar had to be wasted. But a 2 year expiry date meant it could be used a year later so little likelyhood of having to chuck any. Just how they achieved the 2 year expiry date I don't know.

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27 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Just how they achieved the 2 year expiry date I don't know.

Easy, just changed a digit :ph34r:

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9 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

Mark Goodwin had done research and found that 2 strips were as effective as four so we all started using two.

if i remember right, the testing was on apistan not bayvarol.

but many beeks simply used it as an excuse to use less and for the most part it worked ok, up until resistance hit.

while the original site resistance was found on was apistan, we where loosing quite a few hives at our storage site just up the road from that site and we where using bayvarol.

next season, with bosses head firmly in the sand, we had other sites that where riddled with PMS. changed to apivar and it was all good.

went back to bayvarol a few years later and straight back to PMS hives.

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6 hours ago, JohnF said:

multiple DNA changes (interestingly, all in the same place in the varroa gene responsible

John is it still the voltage-gated sodium channel's L925 series of substitutions, L925V, L925M, etc., in the frame here or have we moved on?

6 hours ago, Bayer said:

We don't have the results yet, but I will share them here when we have them.

That will be very helpful, thank you.

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1 hour ago, tristan said:

went back to bayvarol a few years later and straight back to PMS hives.

 

Was that 2 or 4 strips per box, and did you also have trouble with apistan?

Edited by Alastair

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6 hours ago, Alastair said:

Or, maybe JohnF could comment on the actual status of Apistan resistance in NZ?

 

I haven't had varroa from people using Apistan so I can't comment on this - all the ones I have seen are from Bayvarol users. 

 

11 minutes ago, Dave Black said:

John is it still the voltage-gated sodium channel's L925 series of substitutions, L925V, L925M, etc., in the frame here or have we moved on?

 

Exactly Dave. The 925 refers to the amino acid and so the one amino acid is changed (mutated) into two others - depending whether Europe (L925V) or USA (I and M). But - these reports are all from Apistan resistance. While in the same pyrethroid chemical class, I have not yet found out whether the same mutations are also found with Bayvarol resistance. 

 

There are are also some other mutations we hope to look at but as yet another unfunded (ie it costs us money!) bit of work then its down the 'to-do' list

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John how are these varroa samples obtained? Off a sticky board or what?

 

Also curious since you are looking at genetics, do you see that most mites in a hive are very genetically similar due to their inbreeding method of mating, or do you see evidence that there is a good amount of outcrossing?

 

 

Edited by Alastair
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