M4tt 4,941 Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 3 hours ago, kaihoka said: Does colour make any difference to their behaviour or productivity ? No. The quality of the queen does . Her colour doesn't seem to 1 Link to post Share on other sites
tom sayn 1,261 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 On 8/25/2017 at 8:38 PM, john berry said: Carniolan's round here anyway are fine on a good day but commercial beekeepers can't always pick the weather to work. I don't have to work with them but one of my sons does sometimes and what he has to say about them on a grotty day would get me heavily moderated. but for fairness we always have to remember that we are dealing actually with carni hybrids because of the yellow mating, not pure carnis. as some of you know i had the pleasure to see some of the strain we imported in the breeding yards in germany before they were imported. i can assure anyone that those carnis usually never needed smoke, many not even on a rainy day well after the honey flow. but their way of breeding required very narrow lines. every queen is inseminated by only one father colony and that's been done for many generations. this mellows a bee down very much. it also allows to be highly selective about some particular traits. has other disadvantages of cos. i'm assuming that David opened the bottle neck to improve the commercial value and increasing their diversity. but it would make them a bit more nervous of cos. Link to post Share on other sites
Popular Post Jose Thayil 577 Posted August 30, 2017 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2017 The first Carniolan queen I got from @David Yanke was about 10 years back. She was not very big but she produced an excellent brood pattern and headed a big hive. That hive out produced my other hives which were Italian at that time. All my hives were kept close to town (Hamilton) then. This particular hive produced 176kg of honey that year which I was very impressed with. I don't get that much honey from any of my hives now though. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites
tom sayn 1,261 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 wow. 176kg is very impressive!. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Philbee 4,675 Posted August 31, 2017 Share Posted August 31, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, tom sayn said: wow. 176kg is very impressive!. That hive obviously didn't carry a Varroa burden into late summer. Big powerful hives remind me of the tractors that pull sleds in competitions. The further the tractor pulls the sled along the track the more the load shifts forward to disadvantage the tractor. Edited August 31, 2017 by Philbee 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Scutellator 52 Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 On 30.08.2017 г. at 9:59 AM, Jose Thayil said: The first Carniolan queen I got from @David Yanke was about 10 years back. .... This particular hive produced 176kg of honey that year which I was very impressed with.... The value of a bee is always judged by comparison. Can you please, tell us the average of the other hives, the maximum crop from the other hives and was it only one carniolan queen that year. I am more interested though, what were your actions after discovering that you can do better? Link to post Share on other sites
Jose Thayil 577 Posted September 1, 2017 Author Share Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scutellator said: The value of a bee is always judged by comparison. Can you please, tell us the average of the other hives, the maximum crop from the other hives and was it only one carniolan queen that year. I am more interested though, what were your actions after discovering that you can do better? Ok. I had other 4 hives that year. 2 were Italian queens bought from breeders and the other 2 were from swarms which were caught in Hamilton area. The Italian ones gave me 117 and 142 kgs each. Did not get exact measures of the other swarm hives but they averaged around 130 kgs. This was an exceptional year and not many hives around at all. The hive which had very yellow italian bees did produce 117 kgs. The other Italian hive which gave 142 kgs were not that bright yellow as the other one though. They looked a bit more brownish yellow. The swarm caught bees were hybrids as they had both yellow and dark bees in them. I still have one of those lines with me. Edited September 1, 2017 by Jose Thayil 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Daley 4,351 Posted September 1, 2017 Share Posted September 1, 2017 25 minutes ago, Jose Thayil said: Ok. I had other 4 hives that year. 2 were Italian queens bought from breeders and the other 2 were from swarms which were caught in Hamilton area. The Italian ones gave me 117 and 142 kgs each. Did not get exact measures of the other swarm hives but they averaged around 130 kgs. This was an exceptional year and not many hives around at all. The hive which had very yellow italian bees did produce 117 kgs. The other Italian hive which gave 142 kgs were not that bright yellow as the other one though. They looked a bit more brownish yellow. The swarm caught bees were hybrids as they had both yellow and dark bees in them. I still have one of those lines with me. That's a good crop, I'd be stoked with that. While this is definitely thought provoking, there can be a massive variation between hives, to say it was solely the fact they were Carnis? I would need a little more evidence, if your seeing that year after year they're out performing that's certainly more to go off. 1 hour ago, Scutellator said: The value of a bee is always judged by comparison. Can you please, tell us the average of the other hives, the maximum crop from the other hives and was it only one carniolan queen that year. I am more interested though, what were your actions after discovering that you can do better? Just because you do it once does not mean you'll do it again. Every season is different. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Popular Post Jose Thayil 577 Posted October 24, 2017 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 24, 2017 Lots of drones with the old queen. Will be grafting from her this week. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Scutellator 52 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 On 27.08.2017 г. at 11:27 PM, kaihoka said: Does colour make any difference to their behaviour or productivity ? Ever heard of genetic linkage? Simple answer is YES. http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/JHacarABJ91en.html In Buckfast breeding we see genetic linkages every day and sometimes the gut feeling saves time. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
tom sayn 1,261 Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 thanks @Scutellatorgood article. the photos might be deceiving and not that it worries me personally, but there is no way these drones would pass the standards of carnie racists. no where near enough bum flaff. or did they have anal belching? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Emile Wilmar 13 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 On 10/29/2017 at 12:13 AM, Scutellator said: Ever heard of genetic linkage? Simple answer is YES. http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/JHacarABJ91en.html In Buckfast breeding we see genetic linkages every day and sometimes the gut feeling saves time. Would you be able to be a gem and tell us a few of the linked alleles and the phenotypes expressed? Link to post Share on other sites
ctm 34 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 My experience with Carniolians. I always had one Carniolen hive and one Italian. Their honey doesn't cristalise that quickly over time. They are survivors so not much colony loss for me. The amazing thing I noticed this spring, they take off like crazy and the Italians in comparison look they are sleep walking. I still need to feed my Italians now while my Carniolans fend for themselves by gathering honey. I think it is the overcast weather we have this spring that is causing the difference. I read somewhere Italians only come out when the sun shines. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Scutellator 52 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 On 28.10.2017 г. at 9:06 PM, tom sayn said: .... but there is no way these drones would pass the standards of carnie racists. no where near enough bum flaff. or did they have anal belching? According to some, there are four carniolan types: Black (Germany and Austria) Grey (Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, etc) Yellow (the Banat bee, some parts of Albania) Brown (Cecropia/Macedonica) The external uniformity is not a natural state but a result of the selection. Sklenar still has high frequency of one orange tergite on the workers. Link to post Share on other sites
Scutellator 52 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 1 hour ago, ctm said: I read somewhere Italians only come out when the sun shines. Nah, they are all different. US Italians, South American Italians, Scandinavian Italians, Chinese Italians, Italian Italians.... and so on. One of the best pure ligustica (if such thing exists) I had, was foraging in light rain and were always the first go out in the morning. One winter they were bringing in pollen during snowing day. Nothing like the typical WWII bomber aircrafts like some of the Italians. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Scutellator 52 Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 9 hours ago, Emile Wilmar said: Would you be able to be a gem and tell us a few of the linked alleles and the phenotypes expressed? I don't know all the answers, but when two lines are crossed (which is done once in every 3 Gen) that creates variation. The extreme yellow ones tend to make more brood ( like Italians) The extreme dark ones are usually thrifty and hot ( resembling other ancestor - Cecropia) 2 Link to post Share on other sites
kaihoka 2,975 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 When I was in Adelaide I took note of The bees I saw and they were pretty black . Much darker than the bees I see around in the upper south island where I live. But they have no varroa so there must be feral hives . Is dark colour the default colour for bees with no control over breeding . Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisM 1,277 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 My impression is that the Carni queens last longer. We actually have several blue dotters that are firing on all cylinders still. It seems bizarre, but so far as I can tell they all have all their legs and wings and are maintaining huge brood nests. This is not to say that they all last longer, but my impression is that our yellow ones don't have the same longevity. It hardly matters if you raise your own queens, but it is interesting to know if more experienced beekeepers see the same thing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Philbee 4,675 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 11 minutes ago, kaihoka said: When I was in Adelaide I took note of The bees I saw and they were pretty black . Much darker than the bees I see around in the upper south island where I live. But they have no varroa so there must be feral hives . Is dark colour the default colour for bees with no control over breeding . My observations are that my Drones are almost all black with some being an obvious mix but tending dark. I have not seen a yellow Drone this season The Queens are getting darker, like roast pumpkin through to dark brown with an occasional black Workers are silver / light pumpkin mix, almost all have the back half of the abdomen silver striped 1 Link to post Share on other sites
kaihoka 2,975 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 2 hours ago, Philbee said: My observations are that my Drones are almost all black with some being an obvious mix but tending dark. I have not seen a yellow Drone this season The Queens are getting darker, like roast pumpkin through to dark brown with an occasional black Workers are silver / light pumpkin mix, almost all have the back half of the abdomen silver striped In my area the black drones have nearly all disappeared and the drones are all golden ones now . I migrants in our area have yellow bees and they are what our bees mate with . 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Jose Thayil 577 Posted November 5, 2017 Author Share Posted November 5, 2017 Link to post Share on other sites
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Popular Post frazzledfozzle 7,483 Posted November 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2017 On 10/31/2017 at 8:27 AM, ctm said: Their honey doesn't cristalise that quickly over time. As far as I’m aware honey crystallisation has nothing to do with the type of bee it is produced by. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Jose Thayil 577 Posted November 17, 2017 Author Share Posted November 17, 2017 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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