Carniolan queen, bees and brood

[M4tt 4,941]

3 hours ago, kaihoka said:

Does colour make any difference to their behaviour or productivity ?

No. The quality of the queen does . Her colour doesn't seem to 

[tom sayn 1,261]

On 8/25/2017 at 8:38 PM, john berry said:

Carniolan's round here anyway are fine on a good day but commercial beekeepers can't always pick the weather to work. I don't have to work with them but one of my sons does sometimes and what he has to say about them on a grotty day would get me heavily moderated.

but for fairness we always have to remember that we are dealing actually with carni hybrids because of the yellow mating, not pure carnis.

as some of you know i had the pleasure to see some of the strain we imported in the breeding yards in germany before they were imported.

i can assure anyone that those carnis usually never needed smoke, many not even on a rainy day well after the honey flow.

but their way of breeding required very narrow lines. every queen is inseminated by only one father colony and that's been done for many generations. this mellows a bee down very much. it also allows to be highly selective about some particular traits. has other disadvantages of cos.

i'm assuming that David opened the bottle neck to improve the commercial value and increasing their diversity. but it would make them a bit more nervous of cos.

[Jose Thayil 577]

The first Carniolan queen I got from @David Yanke was about 10 years back. She was not very big but she produced an excellent brood pattern and headed a big hive. That hive out produced my other hives which were Italian at that time. 

 

All my hives were kept close to town (Hamilton) then. This particular hive produced 176kg of honey that year which I was very impressed with. I don't get that much honey from any of my hives now though. 

[tom sayn 1,261]

wow. 176kg is very impressive!.

 

[Philbee 4,675]

8 hours ago, tom sayn said:

wow. 176kg is very impressive!.

 

That hive obviously didn't carry a Varroa burden into late summer.

Big powerful hives remind me of the tractors that pull sleds in competitions.

The further the tractor pulls the sled along the track the more the load shifts forward to disadvantage the tractor.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Philbee

[Scutellator 52]

On 30.08.2017 г. at 9:59 AM, Jose Thayil said:

The first Carniolan queen I got from @David Yanke was about 10 years back.

.... This particular hive produced 176kg of honey that year which I was very impressed with....

The value of a bee is always judged by comparison. Can you please, tell us the average of the other hives, the maximum crop from the other hives and was it only one carniolan queen that year.

 

I am more interested though, what were your actions after discovering that you can do better?

[Jose Thayil 577]

1 hour ago, Scutellator said:

The value of a bee is always judged by comparison. Can you please, tell us the average of the other hives, the maximum crop from the other hives and was it only one carniolan queen that year.

 

I am more interested though, what were your actions after discovering that you can do better?

Ok. I had other 4 hives that year. 2 were Italian queens bought from breeders and the other 2 were from swarms which were caught in Hamilton area. The Italian ones gave me 117 and 142 kgs each. Did not get exact measures of the other swarm hives but they averaged around 130 kgs. This was an exceptional year and not many hives around at all. 

 

The hive which had very yellow italian bees did produce 117 kgs. The other Italian hive which gave 142 kgs were not that bright yellow as the other one though. They looked a bit more brownish yellow.

 

The swarm caught bees were hybrids as they had both yellow and dark bees in them. I still have one of those lines with me. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Jose Thayil

[Daley 4,351]

25 minutes ago, Jose Thayil said:

Ok. I had other 4 hives that year. 2 were Italian queens bought from breeders and the other 2 were from swarms which were caught in Hamilton area. The Italian ones gave me 117 and 142 kgs each. Did not get exact measures of the other swarm hives but they averaged around 130 kgs. This was an exceptional year and not many hives around at all. 

 

The hive which had very yellow italian bees did produce 117 kgs. The other Italian hive which gave 142 kgs were not that bright yellow as the other one though. They looked a bit more brownish yellow.

 

The swarm caught bees were hybrids as they had both yellow and dark bees in them. I still have one of those lines with me. 

That's a good crop, I'd be stoked with that.

 

While this is definitely thought provoking, there can be a massive variation between hives, to say it was solely the fact they were Carnis? I would need a little more evidence, if your seeing that year after year they're out performing that's certainly more to go off.

1 hour ago, Scutellator said:

The value of a bee is always judged by comparison. Can you please, tell us the average of the other hives, the maximum crop from the other hives and was it only one carniolan queen that year.

 

I am more interested though, what were your actions after discovering that you can do better?

Just because you do it once does not mean you'll do it again.

Every season is different.

[Jose Thayil 577]

Lots of drones with the old queen. Will be grafting from her this week.  

[Scutellator 52]

On 27.08.2017 г. at 11:27 PM, kaihoka said:

Does colour make any difference to their behaviour or productivity ?

Ever heard of genetic linkage? Simple answer is YES.

http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/JHacarABJ91en.html

 

In Buckfast breeding we see genetic linkages every day and sometimes the gut feeling saves time.

[tom sayn 1,261]

thanks @Scutellatorgood article.

 

the photos might be deceiving and not that it worries me personally,

but there is no way these drones would pass the standards of carnie racists.

no where near enough bum flaff. or did they have anal belching?

 

[Emile Wilmar 13]

On 10/29/2017 at 12:13 AM, Scutellator said:

Ever heard of genetic linkage? Simple answer is YES.

http://www.pedigreeapis.org/biblio/artcl/JHacarABJ91en.html

 

In Buckfast breeding we see genetic linkages every day and sometimes the gut feeling saves time.

Would you be able to be a gem and tell us a few of the linked alleles and the phenotypes expressed?

[ctm 34]

My experience with Carniolians. I always had one Carniolen hive and one Italian. Their honey doesn't cristalise that quickly  over time. They are survivors so not much colony loss for me. The amazing thing I noticed this spring,  they take off like crazy and the Italians in comparison look they are sleep walking. I still need to feed my Italians now while my Carniolans fend for themselves by gathering honey. I think it is the overcast weather we have this spring that is causing the difference. I read somewhere Italians only come out when the sun shines. 

[Scutellator 52]

On 28.10.2017 г. at 9:06 PM, tom sayn said:

....

but there is no way these drones would pass the standards of carnie racists.

no where near enough bum flaff. or did they have anal belching?

 

According to some, there are four carniolan types:

Black (Germany and Austria)

Grey (Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, etc)

Yellow (the Banat bee, some parts of Albania)

Brown (Cecropia/Macedonica) 

 

The external uniformity is not a natural state but a result of the selection. Sklenar still has high frequency of one orange tergite on the workers.

[Scutellator 52]

1 hour ago, ctm said:

 I read somewhere Italians only come out when the sun shines. 

Nah, they are all different. US Italians, South American Italians, Scandinavian Italians, Chinese Italians, Italian Italians.... and so on.

 

One of the best pure ligustica (if such thing exists) I had, was foraging in light rain and were always the first go out in the morning. One winter they were bringing in pollen during snowing day. Nothing like the typical WWII bomber aircrafts like some of the Italians.

[Scutellator 52]

9 hours ago, Emile Wilmar said:

Would you be able to be a gem and tell us a few of the linked alleles and the phenotypes expressed?

I don't know all the answers, but when two lines are crossed (which is done once in every 3 Gen) that creates variation.

The extreme yellow ones tend to make more brood ( like Italians)

The extreme dark ones are usually thrifty and hot ( resembling other ancestor - Cecropia)

[kaihoka 2,975]

When I was in Adelaide I took note of The bees I saw and they were pretty black .

Much darker than the bees I see around in the upper south island where I live.

But they have no varroa so there must be feral hives .

Is dark colour the default colour for bees with no control over breeding .

 

[ChrisM 1,277]

My impression is that the Carni queens last longer. We actually have several blue dotters that are firing on all cylinders still. It seems bizarre, but so far as I can tell they all  have all their legs and wings and are maintaining huge brood nests. This is not to say that they all last longer, but my impression is that our yellow ones don't have the same longevity. It hardly matters if you raise your own queens, but it is interesting to know if more experienced beekeepers see the same thing.

[Philbee 4,675]

11 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

When I was in Adelaide I took note of The bees I saw and they were pretty black .

Much darker than the bees I see around in the upper south island where I live.

But they have no varroa so there must be feral hives .

Is dark colour the default colour for bees with no control over breeding .

 

My observations are that my Drones are almost all black with some being an obvious mix but tending dark.
I have not seen a yellow Drone this season

The Queens are getting darker, like roast pumpkin through to dark brown with an occasional black 

Workers are silver / light pumpkin mix, almost all have the back half of the abdomen silver striped 

[kaihoka 2,975]

2 hours ago, Philbee said:

My observations are that my Drones are almost all black with some being an obvious mix but tending dark.
I have not seen a yellow Drone this season

The Queens are getting darker, like roast pumpkin through to dark brown with an occasional black 

Workers are silver / light pumpkin mix, almost all have the back half of the abdomen silver striped 

In my area the black drones have nearly all disappeared and the drones are all golden ones now .

I migrants in our area have yellow bees and they are what our bees mate with .

[Jose Thayil 577]

 

[Jose Thayil 577]

 

[Jose Thayil 577]

[frazzledfozzle 7,483]

On 10/31/2017 at 8:27 AM, ctm said:

Their honey doesn't cristalise that quickly  over time.

 

As far as I’m aware honey crystallisation has nothing to do with the type of bee it is produced by.

[Jose Thayil 577]